) and each has an extensive set of indices at the back.
It just seems so unnecessary.
and another thing . . .
Moderator: PaulW
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gwyn
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- Parish / Diocese: Archdiocese of Cardiff
- Location: Abertillery, South Wales UK
and another thing . . .
Couldn't the cost of hymn books be kept a little lower if extensive indices were not printed at the back of every single volume, even the words-only editions? We have 200 words-only copies of "Celebration Hymnal for Everyone" (yes, I know, but I didn't know about "Laudate" when we bought them ) and each has an extensive set of indices at the back.
It just seems so unnecessary.
) and each has an extensive set of indices at the back.
It just seems so unnecessary.
Celebration Hymnal for Everyone
It may be excessive to index a words only edition if it is not going to be used by anyone with a planning hat on. However, I am glad the melody and full music editions contain liturgical, scriptural and (a little less importantly) topical indices. I certainly make use of them for planning purposes. I am grateful that an editor went to the effort of compiling them. Once done, I wonder how much cost is added to an edition by including them. Perhaps someone with knowledge in this area could enlighten us?
Don't knock CforE; our parish has had it as "the hymn book" since it was first published in the mid nineties. Although we draw widely from many other sources, we are still finding new (nouveaux) and appropriate pieces to sing from it.
Dot
Don't knock CforE; our parish has had it as "the hymn book" since it was first published in the mid nineties. Although we draw widely from many other sources, we are still finding new (nouveaux) and appropriate pieces to sing from it.
Dot
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gwyn
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CH for E has 56 pages of them in every single words-only edition. Our smallish parish has 200 copies.
I agree, Dot, I can see the logic and the need in the choir/accompaniment editions having indexes and extensive ones at that, but the words-only edition (which are in alphabetical order anyway) could surely get away with less or none?
Other humble opinions invited . . .
I agree, Dot, I can see the logic and the need in the choir/accompaniment editions having indexes and extensive ones at that, but the words-only edition (which are in alphabetical order anyway) could surely get away with less or none?
Other humble opinions invited . . .
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Tsume Tsuyu
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and another thing....
How long must a song/hymn be in circulation, do you think, before it becomes an 'old' favourite?
I ask because we've been singing some songs for over 10 years and yet some members of the congregation would still refuse to join in because they are 'new' hymns. And yet, some of those awful 70's songs that are included on Benevenio's list are now firmly established favourites. So 20 or 30 years, then, before they are allowed to become 'old' favourites?
TT
I ask because we've been singing some songs for over 10 years and yet some members of the congregation would still refuse to join in because they are 'new' hymns. And yet, some of those awful 70's songs that are included on Benevenio's list are now firmly established favourites. So 20 or 30 years, then, before they are allowed to become 'old' favourites?
TT
Hymns familiar and unfamiliar
Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt. Perhaps any "old favourite" is best used sparingly, and liberally mixed with more challenging music.
I think there are some refreshingly different items in Celebration for Everyone which we have used several times, but will never probably not be "favourites" with the assembly, perhaps because they are quite demanding musically. Perhaps we should canvass the assembly's opinion more: we might get a surprise...... perhaps these songs might work by turning minds back to the message of one of the readings, even if they don't provoke a great audible response.
Don't be disappointed in your choice of hymnal, Gwyn; have a go at Chris O'Hara's "Stay Awake" next Advent, or Chris Walker's "Send us as your blessing, Lord" as a recessional. Also, rejoice in the knowledge that CHforE does not contain the Israeli Mass!
Dot
I think there are some refreshingly different items in Celebration for Everyone which we have used several times, but will never probably not be "favourites" with the assembly, perhaps because they are quite demanding musically. Perhaps we should canvass the assembly's opinion more: we might get a surprise...... perhaps these songs might work by turning minds back to the message of one of the readings, even if they don't provoke a great audible response.
Don't be disappointed in your choice of hymnal, Gwyn; have a go at Chris O'Hara's "Stay Awake" next Advent, or Chris Walker's "Send us as your blessing, Lord" as a recessional. Also, rejoice in the knowledge that CHforE does not contain the Israeli Mass!
Dot
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gwyn
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- Location: Abertillery, South Wales UK
I wish too that the Alto line of SATB and SA hymns and songs could be included in Melody Edition. (Yes, I know it wouldn't be a melody only edition then but it seems such a wasted opportunity). The benefits would be two-fold:
*In places where unison singing is the norm sight-singers could add the second voice ad lib.
* SATB choirs could purchase two-volume full-music editions for instrumentalists, Basses and Tenors only, the Altos could use the so-called melody edition.
Just a thought.
BTW
Often use "Send us as your blessing, Lord" Dot. We make full use of the CH for E so not too disappointed at having climbed aboard a little too early
*In places where unison singing is the norm sight-singers could add the second voice ad lib.
* SATB choirs could purchase two-volume full-music editions for instrumentalists, Basses and Tenors only, the Altos could use the so-called melody edition.
Just a thought.
BTW
Often use "Send us as your blessing, Lord" Dot. We make full use of the CH for E so not too disappointed at having climbed aboard a little too early
Correction
Dot wrote:Also, rejoice in the knowledge that CHforE does not contain the Israeli Mass!
Correction: the Israeli Mass is there, lurking in the alphabetical index, which I failed to use (too many indices!?). Interestingly, it is not in the section headed "service music", which is where I expected to find it. Other settings of parts of the Mass are found there. Has it been excluded deliberately??????
Dot makes a good point:
The thread is wandering here, but to add to this, issues surrounding 'old favourites' are less significant, if the delivery of the hymn/song is correct. Some of you may have had that "Hey, it IS worth doing this after all!"-feeling, when an unfamiliar piece of music is commented upon favourably. The magic moments are:
"Never heard that piece before but it's really nice!"
...or, even better:
"Never heard it played that way before, but I really liked the way YOU did it!"
...and the one that will have you walking on air for a week:
"Never Liked that one before, but I really liked the way YOU did it!"
These are the moments I aspire to, and they only occur when a piece of music gets written on the heart of the person listening, to such an extent that they will hear God's message like they have never heard it before.
To do this, the message needs to be interpreted correctly, and there is rarely guidance given on the background to a hymn/song which gives the interpreter any clues. That's where we need to look carefully at the words and ask
"How can I make the music deliver this message?"
these songs might work by turning minds back to the message of one of the readings, even if they don't provoke a great audible response.
The thread is wandering here, but to add to this, issues surrounding 'old favourites' are less significant, if the delivery of the hymn/song is correct. Some of you may have had that "Hey, it IS worth doing this after all!"-feeling, when an unfamiliar piece of music is commented upon favourably. The magic moments are:
"Never heard that piece before but it's really nice!"
...or, even better:
"Never heard it played that way before, but I really liked the way YOU did it!"
...and the one that will have you walking on air for a week:
"Never Liked that one before, but I really liked the way YOU did it!"
These are the moments I aspire to, and they only occur when a piece of music gets written on the heart of the person listening, to such an extent that they will hear God's message like they have never heard it before.
To do this, the message needs to be interpreted correctly, and there is rarely guidance given on the background to a hymn/song which gives the interpreter any clues. That's where we need to look carefully at the words and ask
"How can I make the music deliver this message?"
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gwyn
- Posts: 1148
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- Parish / Diocese: Archdiocese of Cardiff
- Location: Abertillery, South Wales UK
Sidvicius said:
Phew, I usually get:
"How do you manage to make all the songs sound the same?"
or
"We always have that one!"
Do you get munny too - a budget? Not that I'm envious or anything like that
"Never heard it played that way before, but I really liked the way YOU did it!"
...and the one that will have you walking on air for a week:
"Never Liked that one before, but I really liked the way YOU did it!"
Phew, I usually get:
"How do you manage to make all the songs sound the same?"
or
"We always have that one!"
Do you get munny too - a budget? Not that I'm envious or anything like that
No need for envy
If I get comments they are usually in a similar vein to the ones you get Gwyn, and the magic moments are rare, but no-one said ministry was meant to be easy (and it usually isn't). No, I don't get paid.
All Apologies
Sorry Gwyn, if my response seemed terse - it wasn't meant that way. It certainly is amazing the comments and queries we get from the congregations - but the style of delivery of the song is key to this I'm sure - I think musicus has made a similar comment elsewhere.
Not long ago, I was in a methodist church where the pianist played Jack Hayford's "Majesty" in a style which I could only describe as sort of "Cockney Pub on the old Joanna", with all little stylistic warbles and trills, (but respectful also - how did he do it?!) - it sounded wonderful! So different to what I was expecting. He took a simple, Christian 'Pop' song of limited value to me, and - if nothing else - had me singing with a smile on my clock, something I haven't done for quite a while.
But he also got me thinking later that Yes, God would have liked it done that way. God strikes me as someone who will always be open to new ideas - God also has rules for sure, but remember that business where Abraham changed his mind for the sake of a few good men?
Not long ago, I was in a methodist church where the pianist played Jack Hayford's "Majesty" in a style which I could only describe as sort of "Cockney Pub on the old Joanna", with all little stylistic warbles and trills, (but respectful also - how did he do it?!) - it sounded wonderful! So different to what I was expecting. He took a simple, Christian 'Pop' song of limited value to me, and - if nothing else - had me singing with a smile on my clock, something I haven't done for quite a while.
But he also got me thinking later that Yes, God would have liked it done that way. God strikes me as someone who will always be open to new ideas - God also has rules for sure, but remember that business where Abraham changed his mind for the sake of a few good men?
Last edited by sidvicius on Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.