Ordo Queries

[Hare]

Two questions regarding our Diocesan (Southwark) Ordo

1) Day Of Prayer For World Peace is listed as Sunday 20 January. PP thought it was on the 1st, so apparently did The Pope and so does today's "Universe"......... Who is right please?

2) Ordo says "Proper Vigil Mass" tonight for the Epiphany...... Gwyn kindly sent me this link http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=632675

I have deliberately given this topic a sort of "Open" heading to avoid too many specific topics

[JW]

Hare, this is my understanding, which could well be wrong.

1) Day of prayer for World Peace. The 1st Jan date was set by Pope Paul VI in 1968 here: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/messages/peace/documents/hf_p-vi_mes_19671208_i-world-day-for-peace_en.html

However, the Bishops Conference appears to observe this on the 2nd Sunday of the year, due to 1 Jan being the Solemnity of the Mother of God. See here:
http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Calendar/Cycle/WinterCP.shtml

The UN observe an International Day of Peace on 21 September. See here: http://www.un.org/en/events/peaceday/

No wonder some of us are confused!

2) What we tend to call vigil Masses in England are not, in fact, vigil Masses. They are anticipatory Masses of the Sunday. So, if a priest wants to hold a Mass on the eve of the Epiphany which satisfies the Sunday Obligation, he has to say the Mass of the Epiphany, not the Vigil Mass. I'm not totally clear on this, so perhaps one of our liturgical experts could confirm or otherwise.

A belated Happy New Year to one and all!

[quaeritor]

if a priest wants to hold a Mass on the eve of the Epiphany which satisfies the Sunday Obligation, he has to say the Mass of the Epiphany, not the Vigil Mass

IHTAF

(You know what that means now! - see a recent thread.)

Q

[Nick Baty]

IHTAF

I have to admire fruitcakes?

[quaeritor]

You're up too late, Nick - and why don't you appear in the list of those one line?

Q

[quaeritor]

. . or even "on line"?

Q

[Nick Baty]

One likes to avoid stalkers!

[quaeritor]

zzzzz (should be a smiley for that)

Night night

Q

[Nick Baty]

[quaeritor]

Nice one! - where'd'you find that?

Q

[Nick Baty]

Google!

[Hare]

2) What we tend to call vigil Masses in England are not, in fact, vigil Masses. They are anticipatory Masses of the Sunday.

Quite. BUT there are some "Proper" Vigil Masses - Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, Birth of John The Baptist, Saints Peter & Paul (I may have missed a couple.....?) I take it that our Ordo is implying one like this.

[JW]

2) What we tend to call vigil Masses in England are not, in fact, vigil Masses. They are anticipatory Masses of the Sunday.

Quite. BUT there are some "Proper" Vigil Masses - Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, Birth of John The Baptist, Saints Peter & Paul (I may have missed a couple.....?) I take it that our Ordo is implying one like this.

So, for example, at Pentecost, if there is a church that doesn't have a Saturday evening Mass to fulfil the Sunday obligation, they can have a Pentecost Vigil Mass, the Mass of the Eve of Pentecost. It's not the Mass of Pentecost so it doesn't meet the obligation.

Have I got this right?

[Hare]

2) What we tend to call vigil Masses in England are not, in fact, vigil Masses. They are anticipatory Masses of the Sunday.

Quite. BUT there are some "Proper" Vigil Masses - Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, Birth of John The Baptist, Saints Peter & Paul (I may have missed a couple.....?) I take it that our Ordo is implying one like this.

So, for example, at Pentecost, if there is a church that doesn't have a Saturday evening Mass to fulfil the Sunday obligation, they can have a Pentecost Vigil Mass, the Mass of the Eve of Pentecost. It's not the Mass of Pentecost so it doesn't meet the obligation.

Have I got this right?

But the Easter Vigil fulfills the obligation doesn't it? I don't know...we need Peter Jones and Fr Gareth!

[musicus]

We are indeed fortunate that Fathers Jones and Leyshon post here. We are equally fortunate that one or two priests don't; those that I (and, no doubt, you) have known who, whatever they once may have known, no longer have much of a clue about things liturgical. So I would not subscribe to IHTAF. Moreover, there are not a few lay people who know about these things, and some of them even post on here