Papal Masses as "Liturgical Paradigms"

[mcb]

I think it may be mistaken to set up the "Spirit of the Council" as an aunt sally, because you leave yourself in the position of appearing to claim that the Council had no spirit, i.e. there was no guiding vision, no miraculous prompting by the Holy Spirit. All you have left is the Council documents as minimalist proof-texts for the position adopted by your favourite faction, or favourite pope. (Or when you said "subsequent statements by Holy Fathers" did you have any of the other popes in mind as well? )

Butler wasn't primarily an "interpreter" of the Council, but one of the Fathers - arguably the leading British contributor. If his writings had an agenda, then, it was genuine fidelity to the spirit of the Council.

[NorthernTenor]

Those who follow papal ceremonies probably use them as a measure of accord by which the liturgy must be measured.

Really? The screaming of the Cappela Sistina, now that you've fired the only man who tried to get it to become "normal" ? You must be joking, Your Holiness. And what about when you celebrate in San Pietro or St John Lateran, where you are facing the people. What then?

Spot on about the Cappela Sistina, SC. And the man who's gone was getting nowhere fast with the problem. Over at St. Peter's, however, the Pope has again led by example, by appointing Fr. Pierre Paul as Director of Music. By all accounts this has considerably improved the standard of sung music, with plenty of opportunities for the people to sing, too.

As for the Pope's celebration versus populum - his use of the 'Benedctine Arrangement' to shift the focus from himself to the Object of our worship sends a clear signal to us all, without introducing unnecessary controversy. He's a quite remarkable man.

[NorthernTenor]

The problem, mcb, is when "The Spirit of the Council" is used to justify changes or practices that aren't part of the tradition and weren't part of the Council's texts, or actually run counter to them and subsequent Papal pronouncements. The place of chant is a good example. Chant is seldom given 'pride of place' in England and Wales, because of the widespread and erroneous belief that such a place doesn't fit with the reforms mandated by the Council. When it was re-introduced to my parish, once a month, well away from the main parish mass, it was with great reluctance on the part of the senior priest in residence, who said that he felt this sort of thing was a retrograde step, taking us back to the years before the Council. Where to begin? We might have given all the references, from the Council, Paul VI, John Paull II and Benedict XVI, with the utmost tact, but it wouldn't have been worth the effort. People have these fixed ideas about the real meaning of the Council, no matter what was actually written, and they're as unlikely to shift from them as their traditionalist counterparts are from theirs'. I guess why that's why the Holy Father has decided to lead by example.

[johnquinn39]

When it was re-introduced to my parish, once a month, well away from the main parish mass, ...

If I am reading the instruction books (CSL & MDV) correctly, then the 'pride of place' of chant should be balanced by the phrase 'all thing being equal'.

Anyway, this is beside the point. Music (of any style) in the liturgy is a means to and end, but not the end in itself. However, as a parish music helper, I am always on the lookout for a good tune that people will sing and help them 'enter into' the text. (Interestingly, the ever-popular 'Eagles wings' has a quote from Orbis Factor - ' ... say to the Lord, my refuge, my rock in whom I trust' and the US favo(u)rite 'Shepherd me, O God' is thouroughly modal and plainsong-like).

OK NT - which plainchant settings are catching on? - Do you sing the Grail Psalms to chant? (not reccomended by the US bishops). Why is it not sung at the main parish Mass?

Have you tried any in the Paul Ford simple gradual?

Do you sing the chant in Latin or English?

As far as I am aware polyphony is permitted rather than required - again, am I reading this correctly?

I saw a morning service (Mass) broadcast from Salford Cathedral a few years ago, and the choir sang Durufle's 'Ubi Caritas' as the postlude - I thaught this was stunning.

Why not sing Monteverdi's 'Beatus vir' at the gifts to complement the resposorial or entrance Psalm of the day when this matches? (Is this Ps 111 or 112?)

PS MDV = Music in divine worship (US bishops) http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/SingToTheLord.pdf

[docmattc]

We are straying a long way from the original discussion. Please try and stay on topic.

[NorthernTenor]

John,

Two comments within the context of the thread topic.

Firstly, one might look to the new appointment at St. Peter's as a case of Benedict - or in this case one of his key appointments - providing an example of the direction in which he would like to see liturgical music go.

Secondly, one would not expect a parish church or even a cathedral to follow everything the Papal establishments do (though, acoustic aside, St. Peter's is less extra-ordinary in this respect than the Sistine Chapel). Each place will have its own particular resources and circumstances that mean that other things are never entirely equal. However, putting aside those elements peculiar to the Papacy, the examples that Benedict appears to be giving us are an indication of the direction in which we might face (pun intended), and of what we might, with dedication and hard work, aspire to.

Just how one might best do so might be clear to you, or it might be a matter in which you believe training and advice have a role to play. Perhaps the Society will provide this, or maybe you might combine its resources with those of experts in your own area. I'm not familiar with the Midlands liturgical music scene, but I would note that, for example, you're surrounded by the director and assistant director of the Schola Gregoriana of Cambridge (Hertfordshire and Merseyside respectively). I've sung for both of them, and can recommend them wholeheartedly. I believe Philip Duffy (Merseyside) is not unknown to the Society, and he frequently runs workshops. Jeremy White (Hertfordshire) is a professional singer who is also a cantor in his own parish. I've heard him discuss with great frankness and insight the problems and opportunities of combining a respect for tradition with the imperative to have the people sing.

I hope that begins to answer some of your questions as best I can within the constraints of the thread, John, and my ignorance as to your local circumstances and resources.

[Southern Comfort]

The place of chant is a good example. <snip> When it was re-introduced to my parish, once a month, well away from the main parish mass, it was with great reluctance on the part of the senior priest in residence, who said that he felt this sort of thing was a retrograde step, taking us back to the years before the Council.

I suspect that senior priests have a rather better idea of where their people are at than those who have particular agendas that they wish to promote. It might be good to pay attention to the kind of pastoral discernment that pastors who have grown in wisdom through experience have to offer us. I think this is precisely what Nick is trying to do in his situation, by the way.

In other words, one might say that papal liturgies, far from being paradigms, could well be irrelevant to ordinary parish liturgies because they operate in a totally different set of pastoral circumstances. The same kind of argument was raised many years ago about Westminster Cathedral: that it actually wasn't a centre of excellence because it was completely divorced from the normal liturgical life of the rest of the diocese. (Has anything changed there?) I'm sure one could never say that about mcb's situation.

[Hare]

John,

Two comments within the context of the thread topic.

Firstly, one might look to the new appointment at St. Peter's as a case of Benedict - or in this case one of his key appointments - providing an example of the direction in which he would like to see liturgical music go.

I can't get this link to open - is it correct please?

[johnquinn39]

John,

Two comments within the context of the thread topic.

Firstly, one might look to the new appointment at St. Peter's as a case of Benedict - or in this case one of his key appointments - providing an example of the direction in which he would like to see liturgical music go.

I can't get this link to open - is it correct please?

Neither can I. However, I think the new appointment may be a priest who favours facing east, communion on the tongue, singing Latin, and not singing about the Christian community.

I do not think that my parish priest will be introducing the above! (Praise the Lord!)

Sorry if this is off-topic.

PS - Is the priest in question Fr Augustine de Noia?

[nazard]

...I suspect that senior priests have a rather better idea of where their people are at than those who have particular agendas that they wish to promote. It might be good to pay attention to the kind of pastoral discernment that pastors who have grown in wisdom through experience have to offer us....

How do we identify which elderly pastors are senior priests who have a better idea of where their people are, and which are aged nutters who adopted strange liturgical practices in their youth and have left a string of decimated parishes behind them?

I personally do find the papal liturgies where he has a large degree of control an inviting and inspiring paradigm, and the mass shows at big venues in general deeply depressing, as are many parish masses.

[NorthernTenor]

John,

Two comments within the context of the thread topic.

Firstly, one might look to the new appointment at St. Peter's as a case of Benedict - or in this case one of his key appointments - providing an example of the direction in which he would like to see liturgical music go.

I can't get this link to open - is it correct please?

Neither can I. However, I think the new appointment may be a priest who favours facing east, communion on the tongue, singing Latin, and not singing about the Christian community.

I do not think that my parish priest will be introducing the above! (Praise the Lord!)

Sorry if this is off-topic.

PS - Is the priest in question Fr Augustine de Noia?

The priest in question is a Canadian, Fr. Pierre Paul. Sorry for the error in the link, John. Here is one I have tested. Now you will be able to test your determined preconceptions against an article about him and the example being set at St. Peter's.

It is true that the Holy Father's example seems to be encouraging an adjustment of focus away from the celebrant, back to the Object of our worship, through the 'Benedictine Arrangement' of the altar. So too, he seems to be encouraging greater reverence for our Lord and his real presence through kneeling at communion and reception on the tongue. I don't think the program of example adresses itself to discouragement of singing about the Christian community, except insamuch as the focus of the liturgy is on God. I guess that's because such an inward-looking practice isn't perceived to be a widespread problem.

[NorthernTenor]

The place of chant is a good example. <snip> When it was re-introduced to my parish, once a month, well away from the main parish mass, it was with great reluctance on the part of the senior priest in residence, who said that he felt this sort of thing was a retrograde step, taking us back to the years before the Council.

I suspect that senior priests have a rather better idea of where their people are at than those who have particular agendas that they wish to promote. It might be good to pay attention to the kind of pastoral discernment that pastors who have grown in wisdom through experience have to offer us. I think this is precisely what Nick is trying to do in his situation, by the way.

In other words, one might say that papal liturgies, far from being paradigms, could well be irrelevant to ordinary parish liturgies because they operate in a totally different set of pastoral circumstances. The same kind of argument was raised many years ago about Westminster Cathedral: that it actually wasn't a centre of excellence because it was completely divorced from the normal liturgical life of the rest of the diocese. (Has anything changed there?) I'm sure one could never say that about mcb's situation.

It's fairly straight forward to identify what is peculiar to the place where the example is set and what is of wider application. There is no reason why arrangement of alter and manner of reception, for example, need be specific to those places. So, too, the mixed use of Latin and the vernacular may be particularly appropriate to a city that receives visitors from all round the world, but the same can increasingly be said of the South East of England and other parts of the country. My own parish includes considerable numbers of Catholics from Eastern Europe and Asia.

As for the differences between the celebration of the liturgy at Westminster Cathedral and the parishes of its diocese - resources and particular obligations aside, and acknowledging that practice is much more varied than you suggest - perhaps it's a case of the Mother Church fulfilling its obligation of setting an example, just as the Holy Father is doing. In both cases, alas, there will be those who believe they know better.

Finally, if you read my post again (and indeed your quote from it), you'll see that the "senior priest's" objection had nothing to do with pastoral considerations. Of course, that may have been a failure of communication - I can only go on what was actually said in response to a pretty innocuous suggestion. I think it more likely that it reflected the understandable anguish of one who had gone through a radical change of course in earlier life, and was now nervous on sensing some corrections to the helm. I suspect from comments on a number of this Board's threads that this is not an uncommon experience, and that it goes a long way to explaining the at times unedifying vitriol on both sides of the debate. It's also why the Holy Father's emphasis on example, rather than fiat, is so wise.