Oops and the Sanctus

[Nick Baty]

Removed

[The original poster has removed his posts to this topic - Musicus, moderator]

[oopsorganist]

Noooooooo

I can't do anything other than 663, 664 and 665 and 666. It took a major crisis and temper tantrum for me to get them to sing 666. You just don't know! I have to keep it simple. But the repetition of these is now doing my head in.

And as for not singing hymns and just going for Acclamations, well, they would have a fit!

[oopsorganist]

I will.

After you have overcome your reticence in joining in with the choir for the Holy at any likely Cathedral!

[docmattc]

"And when in this congregation a choir exists, which can draw the congregation into the cosmic praise and into the wide open space of heaven and earth more strongly than the congregation's own stammering is able to do, then precisely in that moment the delegated, representative function of the choir is especially appropriate and fitting."

Surely if you have picked a setting of the Sanctus to which that part of the congregation which isn't the choir can only stammer, you have picked one that is inappropriate for the needs and abilities of your congregation.

[Reginald]

Before my exile to these parts I sang at Clifton - and blame it entirely for my eclectic liturgical tastes - Victoria and Vaughan-Williams one minute, Mass parts where the ink is still wet the next.

The Choral Sanctus is not unknown at Clifton's 11 o'clock Mass...but you're as likely to be singing the works of Messrs Walker and Inwood. Personally I think Clifton does (did? I'm not there anymore so I can't be absolutely certain) an excellent job of balancing its responsibilities to provide a liturgy which is exemplary within the diocese, and its responsibilities with regard to preserving the Church's musical heritage.

That doesn't mean other approaches aren't possible.

I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all, of us would fail the following test - based solely on the Vat II teaching of the Church regarding music at Mass (I certainly would). That being the case, we should be aware that most of us 'pick and choose', to some extent, when it comes to what Mother Church has to say on how we should exercise our ministry of music.

Are the people in your Church "...able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."? If your priest were to sing Dominus vobiscum...Sursum corda...etc how many would be able to reply (in song)?

PS - in my capacity as the forum's arch-traditionalist...active (or actual) articipation doesn't have to be about 'doing' something, it could simply be a (deep) awareness of what someone else is doing.

PPS I'm with OOPS on just joining in - if I'm there and I know the piece it's fair game!

[nazard]

I went to Clifton 11 o'clock mass yesterday, so I will give a quick resume of what was done and perhaps Reginald would like to comment.

Two hymns were played, one as entrance and one as recessional. The first was "For the healing of the nations" to Picardy, and the last "In Christ there is no east or west" to St Magnus. Both were played very slowly to my taste, which was actually a pleasant change. The congregation's timing was all over the place. I think that this was due to the very long acoustic, which has the pronounced characteristic that treble notes die very quickly whereas bass notes roll around for ever. The organist seemed reluctant to use his upperwork, and so did not give a strong lead.

The mass ordinary was all plainsong settings from the Kyriale Romanum, not a consistent mass setting, but bits from each. Most of it I had never sung before, but it was taken slowly, about half Prinknash or a third Downside speed, and clear copies were provided in Gregorian notation, so I was able to sight read it. The congregation did well.

The psalm and Gospel Acclamation were Walker. Again copies were provided, but the congregation did less well. The soloist was excellent. The Memorial Acclamation was "Christus vincit" to the plainsong tune, which I did not think was authorised, but went well.

The choir was just two ladies, who sang two motets, if that is the right word, accompanied by the organ. I thought that they were technically excellent and created a very prayerful ambience.

I feel Clifton Cathedral is cursed by its long and uneven acoustic and general industrial appearance, and the organ, which is an excellent recital instrument, just did not seem up the job of leading a congregation. The singers at Clifton have a tradition of waving their hands, which they call animation. I always have to look away or I collapse in fits of laughter.

All in all, I can recommend at least one visit to Clifton at 1100. They have a lot to teach us.

[alan29]

PPS I'm with OOPS on just joining in - if I'm there and I know the piece it's fair game!
___________________________________________________________
When I was at university I was in the chapel choir - choral evensong etc. We used to drop in on St Georges Windsor Castle for evensnog if were in town for shopping. We used to join in the responses with the choir. Got a nasty note from the choirmaster threatening all sorts.
So Reginald, be careful where you do it.

Incidentally, isn't the Moto Proprio a very Anglican lash-up. Interesting from one who would not even call them a church. Still, when you're infallible, you don't need to be consistent, I guess.
Alan

[Dot]

I will tell you of my recent experience of a mass in my parish. First, please read page 2 of the thread "in quires and places" held in late 2004.

I have long been told of the teachings of the Church's documents that form the basis of the model of singing used in our parish. I have a very small part to play in that music at present, just one Mass a month, and that took place last Saturday. I followed the model: well-known songs chosen entirely from the SSG liturgy planner, sung psalm with cantors, well-known Gospel Acclamation, Eucharistic Acclamations and Gloria (which have been used week in week out for several months). I invited the congregation to sing before Mass (as I always do) and showed them how the psalm response worked (because it was an echo one). Then we started Mass with me, my guitar, and two cantors (who later became three) as the only audible sound. Thank goodness that everything was accompanied on guitar that evening, because at least I could support the singing better than if I had been sat at the piano. The assembly's response was so poor that, during the sermon, I had to make new arrangements with my three cantors for the Glastonbury Eucharistic Acclamations: that two of them would be cantors and the other two of us would stand in for the non-existent echo of the assembly. At the end of Mass, Father thanked the girls for their lovely singing, describing it as "just right." (Don't get me wrong, they were lovely singers, but we didn't get it "just right!")
It's not always as bad as this; the previous month my invitation to the congregation to sing met with a good response. I think there needs to be a critical mass of singers within the congregation before it takes off, and that critical mass was not present this Saturday. In the absence of that critical mass, is a cantor/echo setting any more liturgically appropriate than a trio setting for three cantors?

The reason I tell you all this is to make the point about the problem of subscribing to a model that doesn't fit the circumstances you are in. I am certain that the majority of cathedrals at which all the criticism is addressed manage to fulfil the needs of the people they serve in a different way, and that model works in their circumstances. In the same way, Ooops is more aware of the limitations she is working under than anyone else. It sometimes takes a lot of courage to do what we're doing, but it is also an intense privilege. Next time I do it I would like to be closer to meeting the needs of the assembly - if that is to listen rather than respond, I will choose the music accordingly.

Dot

[nazard]

You are lucky to have the option of obeying directives of whatever sort. My position is:

1) Pride of place is to be given to plainsong - not here it isn't. I have to fight like a tiger for it.

2) I get pressured to used the oddest text substitutions for the gloria, Agnus Dei etc. No musical setting is too wacky!

I will stop quickly before I get the moaning prize...

[nazard]

Why, the liturgy Komissariat, of course.

[Canonico]

Nick, Nick!!
Usually I am in sympathy (or empathy) with your posts, but give me a McD sausage sandwich every time. Chorizo-nasty foreign muck! Red wine is alright tho!

[docmattc]

Will this thread turn into a discussion on sausages? I fear the wurst!!

[oopsorganist]

That's the way to do it!

I can't say sausages I can only say Squasages.

On Sunday we sang 3 verses of Walk with me, oh my Lord (chosen by Maureen's mum at the last minute when it turned out that no one knows the tune to The King of Love my Shepherd is, and badly badly played)
664 Lord have Mercy although we had already said that bit, Alleluia with the middle bit said, Praise to the Holiest int' Heights. cos I like it, 664 Holy Holy and Lamb of God, during Communion shuffling I played Oh Godhead Hid for no other reason than that I like it and we never sing it, after three verses of the same it felt daft, so we sang Oh the Love of my Lord is the essence, and finished with Be Thou my Vision, all verses, because I like that too.

Everyone sang and the organ didn't stick once.

[organist]

Dear Oops,
"Because I like it" is not a good enough reason to choose anything! Use your liturgy planner more - explore the hymnbook. What do you mean "nobody knows The king of love" - disgraceful! It's a standard hymn known to millions - teach the congregation or if you can't do that, make the choir rehearse. Do it after Mass if you have to! I do hate last minute decisions - they are usually a mistake in every way.

[oopsorganist]

dear Organist

Is because I can better reason for you?
I did use the planner. I always use the planner.
You're right about it being disgraceful.
But playing something that clearly no one knows is not the way to go.
I have lost that b***8* choir yet again, where on earth did I put them? and
not for nothing is it Oops.

Maybe it should have been pragmatic.

xxx