Mithras wrote:For the choir: anybody here do Villette's Hymne a la Vierge? A cross between compline in Notre Dame and a jazz club on the left bank. Smoky!
Mithras
Maybe a good description of a marvellous piece, but for liturgy? I think it is more for choir self-indulgence.
There's wonderful polyphony that provides wonderful liturgical material: eg. "If ye love me" - Tallis,"Ave Verum Corpus" - Byrd or Elgar. But I would draw the line at the former piece. I've only sung it at concerts.
Dot
In what ways do you think Villette's Hymne a la Vierge unsuitable for the liturgy at Assumptiontide, Dot?
Good on YA! Tribal chamber choir from Galway the Emerald Isle! Mark Keane, their conductor, also a great organist! Bogoroditse Devo - Gorgeous piece - my choir learned this for last May. My only lack was in the Bass dept! You need a dose of flu laced with a few naggins of Vodka to do those lines justice! I sang in a choir about six years ago which specialised in Russian Orthodox literature - this Bass was from Hungary. He was like vocal sandpaper - but good! He maintained that you needed to have the attitude of a militant with a kalashnikov primed for action (Spelling?) to sing some of that material... A case of 'Onward Christian soldiers' perhaps?
NorthernTenor wrote:In what ways do you think Villette's Hymne a la Vierge unsuitable for the liturgy at Assumptiontide, Dot?
I have just had to look up a translation of the French to find out the meaning of the text. It's the kind of piece that takes up all your attention in the musical setting (It's unaccompanied in eight parts with tricky intonation, for those that don't know it, and extremely attractive). How many people listening would have a incling of the meaning? I have experienced this piece as a performance, not as a part of the liturgy - perhaps that has coloured my view of it.
In contrast, "If ye love me" could not be more direct in delivering the text, and, with well known Latin texts like "Ave Verum Corpus" there is much more chance of the assembly being familiar with the meaning.
Dot wrote:It's the kind of piece that takes up all your attention in the musical setting
Although I don't know the piece in question, I do understand what you mean, Dot. Sometimes it's a very fine line between that which is beautiful and that which is suitable. The Tallis you mention is a fine example of the latter.
The Council of Trent had plans to abolish polyphony altogether – not surprising when you consider the origins of some of the cantus firmi – and it was only Palestrina's demonstration of his own polyphonic masses – one of which may have been Missa Papae Marcelli – which saved the day.
Then I think of the beautiful sound of so much orthodox music where the words are almost completely obscured – yet, somehow, this still works and takes us to a level beyond words.
It really is a massive area – perhaps the trick is to consider how these varying forms and styles work in varying situations. To give a rather simple example: The more meditative Taizé chants work well at our Evening Prayer but for some reason they don't work at a busy Sunday morning Mass with many young families.
I guess the point is that the translation shoukd be provided, not that we should be afraid of singing a ravishing French motet. That reminds me of how I felt when I sang a latinised version of Rachmaninov's Bogoroditse Dyevo (Ave Maria) last Saturday (the Anglicans aren't afraid to celebrate the feast on its own day). It was a lovely anthem appropriate to the day, but the sublimity of the original supplemented by a translation would have been even better.
NorthernTenor wrote:the Anglicans aren't afraid to celebrate the feast on its own day
Oh really? I've mooched around a few glorious medieval wool churches last week and none of them had a celebration of the Assumption. The reformers removed the feast from the calendar - Book of Common Prayer Ordo is blank on 15th August. Common Worship has a feast (but not a Holy Day) simply entitled The Blessed Virgin Mary on the 15th but this may be transferred to 8th September.
presbyter wrote:Oh really? I've mooched around a few glorious medieval wool churches last week and none of them had a celebration of the Assumption. The reformers removed the feast from the calendar - Book of Common Prayer Ordo is blank on 15th August. Common Worship has a feast (but not a Holy Day) simply entitled The Blessed Virgin Mary on the 15th but this may be transferred to 8th September.
You're right, Presbyter. It was a festal evensong for the feast of the Blessed Virgin Mary, not the Assumption, and the sermon nervously touched on the differences between us on this matter. However, there was a time when even this would not have been possible, so vehement was the strain of 'no Popery' in the English psyche. In a previous age Catholic churches were attacked and burned not far from where we sang, and the diocese saw prosecution of ritualist clergy. I think it fair to say that the inclusion of the festival in Common Worship reflects a more accepting approach to those Anglicans with Catholic ideas, and a nod to ARCIC, rather than a widespread devotion to Mary.
And yes, it is a movebale feast, but not to the nearest Sunday. The alternative is still mid-week this year.
alan29 wrote:One of our local Anglican churches marked the Assumption with solemn exposition and benediction.
And this done by a man who at some stage in his formation will have solemnly sworn to uphold these two of the thirty-nine articles?
XXII. Of Purgatory The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Reliques, and also invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.
XXV. Of the Sacraments Sacraments ordained of Christ be not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession, but rather they be certain sure witnesses, and effectual signs of grace, and God's good will towards us, by the which he doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm our Faith in him.
There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord.
Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.
The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same they have a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith.
I will never understand the "Broad Church" as set up by Elizabeth I. Isn't there a Vicar in (or somewhere near) Oxford who doesn't now believe in God and who celebrates secular humanism in his church? If anyone wants to consider what the Church might be like without the Magisterium, look at the C of E.
I was fired from the only Anglican church I worked in because of my "protestant" approach: ie wanting to involve the assembly. I remember the rector's exact words: "And I will never employ another Roman again".
Its ruling purpose was the unity of the country. As long as clergy and people were happy to give formal assent, no-one enquired too closely of their belief. This raison d'être is long gone, but so deeply engrained is the 'live and let live' approach to those within the walls that the idea of institutional constraints on faith and morals is one that many Anglicans have difficulties with; but it has also permitted the development of a Catholic kind of churchmanship that worships reverently and gives assent to many Catholic beliefs, no matter the internal inconsistencies. It's been a way-station on the road to the Church for two English Cardinals, and at least one of the country's current Bishops.
ps hence the music and worship similar to ours in some Anglican churches at Assumption-tide.
Last edited by NorthernTenor on Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
presbyter wrote: Isn't there a Vicar in (or somewhere near) Oxford who doesn't now believe in God and who celebrates secular humanism in his church?
Sorry, off-topic but I think you're rerferring to Don Cupitt. who was dean of Emmanual College Cambridge and the inspiration for the Sea of Faith network which promotes "non-realism" - that is, religion as a purely human construct not dependant upon divine revelation, and the idea of "God" as merely a convenient focal point for human aspiration, but not an objective reality.
