Comparing the meerkat - the digital experience!

[keitha]

We are contemplating replacing our organ. The church (b1968) is large (seats c1,000) with no reverberation (brick walls and a ceiling of plywood sound baffling and acoustic tiles). We have an unenclosed 1 manual and pedal organ of 3 ranks. It will soon need a major overhaul and is completely inadequate. A new pipe organ is out of the question (we could never raise or justify, the cost) and the existing organ loft is too small and cannot take the weight, so significant structural changes would be needed. We considered installing a used instrument but cannot find anything suitable and would still have the structural problem, so we are considering 'going digital'.

It is hard to find meaningful information on the effectiveness of the various makes in the context of the needs of a catholic parish and its liturgy, their sound, and the overall experience of buying, commissioning and living with them after installation, so I would be very grateful for information on these aspects of the various instruments on the market. I have also had the considerable benefit of the opinions and experiences of mcb, psalm project and presbyter (for which I am very grateful), so they can ignore this!

If anyone has experience of building an instrument using the 'Hauptwerke' software, that would also be of interest.

[presbyter]

I have also had the considerable benefit of the opinions and experiences of mcb, psalm project and presbyter (for which I am very grateful), so they can ignore this!

Simples!

[Nick Baty]

Where are you based? There are two large churches a mile from here which have recently installed Allen digital organs. In both cases the speaker cabinets have been placed in the organ gallery with the console at the front. Both are excellent. If you're ever in these here parts you'd be welcome to have a play!

[keitha]

Touché Presbyter!

Nick, thanks for that. I will PM you.

[gwyn]

Keitha
We've a delightful three manual Copeman Hart situated in the west gallery. Call in and give it a whirl if your ever in South Wales near Sunny Abergavenny.

Gwyn.

[keitha]

Thanks. I will PM you when I have had more replies (if I get any!).

[Southern Comfort]

I wouldn't touch an Allen (USA) with a bargepole. Very unreliable, even in the short term, as you'd expect from an off-the-peg manufacturer. I have a file full of documentation on that. Add to that the fact that I don't like the sounds they make...... synthetic, unconvincing.....

Similarly, don't go for a Wyvern (UK). Nasty sounds, inferior technology, not gratifying to play. Consoles are very difficult to handle, even for skilled players.

Copeman Hart (UK) are the Rolls Royce of electronic organs, but hideously expensive. If you can afford it, this is the make to go for. They will want to install more loudspeakers than you would have thought necessary, but the result will be superb.

Phoenix (UK) are also pretty expensive, and, though sounding very good on the demo recordings, are very disappointing in the flesh from the sound point of view. (Yes, I know Leeds have got one: sounds good on their website, but it's actually not very nice.) They are designed by computer whizzes who are not necessarily as musical as we are.

Makin (UK) ─ well, lots of gadgets, alternative voicings, etc, but awful sounds and difficult to balance. No blend in the choruses at all.

Cathedral (also known as Eminent) (Netherlands): don't touch 'em with a bargepole. Sounds are synthetic, loudspeakers are generally inadequate. Consoles are huge and badly designed (they get them from the usual West Country supplier, but never tailor them to the circuitry they need to contain).

Johannus (Netherlands again): really not nice at all. Once upon a time, they tried (not very successfully) to bring "Continental" pipe organ tone to electronics. Nothing much has changed. The technology has improved, but the sounds are still unpleasant.

Viscount (UK): this is what I'd go for with a limited budget. Not as good as Copeman Hart (no other electronic can be), but serviceable, and reliable. The Prestige range is OK for many parish churches. They have recently moved from off-the-peg to customising to a certain extent, and have cut off most of their agents (who were taking short cuts in the interest of boosting their own profits) and now do their installations themselves.

Rodgers (USA) ─ no fear! Ghastly machines, horrible to play, unpleasant sounds.

Norwich (UK ─ yes, you thought they'd died a long time ago, but they're still alive). Don't bother with 'em. Nothing to commend.

Hugh Banton (UK) - takes other machines and tarts them up. The ones I've seen have not been impressive, but others may have different experiences. He often worked with the Bradford Computing Organ, which is another make you will encounter. Once again, nothing to write home about (designed in a university physics lab, not initially by musicians).

Ahlborn (sometimes called Ahlborn-Galanti) (Italy and UK): shrill squealings in mixtures, no blend in choruses. Better in Europe than over here.

I'm sure this rapid survey has left out some (anyone ─ please remind me!), but basically the choice for me comes down to

(a) if you have the money, Copeman Hart.
(b) if you don't, Viscount.

An important basic point: when you listen to a demo recording, whether on a CD or a website, be aware that often the result will sound marvellous. This will frequently be because the recording has been done by direct feed from the instrument into the digital recording machine, and not by microphones recording the sound coming out of loudspeakers in the building. In other words, you're getting an impression that can never be reproduced in real life, and which furthermore can be tweaked in the recording studio to sound better than it actually is, adding artificial reverb, etc.

Another important point. Some (but not all) manufacturers will be willing to lend you a demo organ to try out for a few weeks in your church. It's perfectly OK to ask for this, and worth having three or four in succession to see what you think about them. Lots of churches have done this, sometimes for as long as 4-6 months. The models supplied for trial are not always the absolute latest, but they will give you an idea. And if the company gives you an old crock, or a demo model that they don't take the trouble to set up well (surprising how often this happens), then you'll draw the appropriate conclusion. Don't be taken in by the salesman's pitch. Get your diocesan organ advisor (if you have one) to come and have a look, too. If you haven't got one, get an advisor in from a neighbouring diocese (I have a list if you need one).

Hope all this is helpful.

[presbyter]

ROFL - SC - you sound like an agent for Copeman Hart!!!

[Nick Baty]

I can only speak about Allen and have to say I was impressed: in one of our churches I heard the instrument when it arrived and, later, when they'd voiced it. Also, they installed a demo instrument and left it for a few days so we could hear it in situ! Can't say how it compares because I've not played any of the other makes in recent years – also, I'm not an organist!

[Psalm Project]

Had to reply to this...
Last assessment offered is wildly far of the mark in relation to phoenix.
We took delivery of a three manual and pedal with nine external channels - including a high power tuba speaker and substantial bass column with 18" driver for the 32' sub and 32' reed on pedals.
Phoenix being run by computer whizzes? Good Lord... I would dearly hope so! You cannot build a digital organ without a consummate knowledge of computers together with all the allied disciplines to produce an organ. I do not think the Phoenix people would agree with you!
The phoenix people I dealt with are themselves organists and can certainly play - not everyone is a Trotter or Latry folks... I dealt directly with David Bostock (MD Phoenix) who came over to Ireland together with two of Renatus' fitters. Flawless installation - precisely to schedule. Built exactly what I wanted - not what some salesman thought I might have wanted. Back up and advice readily available. Nothing was too much trouble. Absolute professionals down to the smallest detail.
Phoenix are competitive... Makin were vastly more expensive and pushy about offering temporary installations and despite the English name they are built by Johannus!! I have the documentation so I can prove my statement!
Wyvern sell mainly Content with the Wyvern badge - their Wpx is a phoenix sub system... if you want phoenix... get the guys who design it! not an agent!
I do not have any experience of some of the others you mention - I played a Rodgers Trillium three manual about a year ago for a radio broadcast - It was not bad.

[Psalm Project]

Nick - if you were an organist and had the organ console at one end and the speakers at the other end you would not appreciate the inherent problem that introduces.
Try working with a soloist and get the balance right - It's hell on earth.

[presbyter]

Keitha
We've a delightful three manual Copeman Hart situated in the west gallery. Call in and give it a whirl if your ever in South Wales near Sunny Abergavenny.

Gwyn.

How much did manufacture and installation cost Gwyn? How's the after-sales service from this company?

[presbyter]

Makin ........ despite the English name they are built by Johannus!! I have the documentation so I can prove my statement!

A visit to a showroom will confirm the above.

[presbyter]

We took delivery of a three manual and pedal with nine external channels - including a high power tuba speaker and substantial bass column with 18" driver for the 32' sub and 32' reed on pedals ............ Absolute professionals down to the smallest detail.

Same questions as to Gwyn if I may - cost? quality of after-sales service?

Thanks.

[mcb]

I wouldn't touch an Allen (USA) with a bargepole... (cont. p. 92)

When we were buying, our short list came down to Copeman Hart, Rodgers and Makin. Can't say I agree with SC's appraisal of the latter two. The temporary Rodgers instrument in Gloucester Cathedral (in 1999-2000) was what won me round to the idea of getting a digital organ; it was superb. Makin in the end we thought better than Rodgers, and both better than Copeman Hart.