Passive non-participation

[johnquinn39]

There is a lot of talk at the moment about teaching people (the young in particular) Latin, and using archaic and non-inclusive language.

Iam not sure why.

Is there a danger here that we could leave people remote (or removed) from the Word of God?

[keitha]

Yes - I think there is a danger of this, so it has, in my view, to be a case of 'moderation in all things', coupled with explanation as to why something is being done and what it means and some formation about the relevant tradition. For example, we taught the children Elgar's 'Ave Verum' for first communions this year (ie 7 year olds) and (i) the kids loved it and were proud to be able to sing it, and (ii) they picked it up it very quickly (and it was not my idea!). The teachers in the school did an excellent job of explaining what it was all about. The rest of the music was in English, from 19th to 21st centuries!

[festivaltrumpet]

There is a lot of talk at the moment about teaching people (the young in particular) Latin, and using archaic and non-inclusive language.
[...]
Is there a danger here that we could leave people remote (or removed) from the Word of God?

There maybe a danger of this. The contrary viewpoint is that dumbed down venacular texts have promoted a lack of reverence which is totally unacceptable. Remoteness from the Word is to be avoided, and indeed the Scriptures may be proclaimed in the venacular even in the extraordinary form.

Does this imply we must use modern, fluffy, politically correct texts in the venacular? I don't think it does. Neither does the contrary mean we should use the language of the Church exclusively and excludingly.

In liturgy we must encounter mystery which is also intimate. If we only experience God as remote and unapproachable, it has failed. If the only message ever received is "Jesus is my friend who gives me a nice bit of bread" it has also failed.

[presbyter]

In liturgy we must encounter mystery which is also intimate.

With respect, that's a very, very, very vague sentence. What do you mean by mystery? Why the modality of obligation and/or necessity? Do you mean "mysteriousness"? Do you mean "numinous"?

Fratres, agnoscamus peccata nostra, ut apti simus ad sacra mysteria celebranda. There's no "mystery" about the "sacra mysteria" whether they be celebrated in English or in Latin.

I happen to have directed Elgar's Ave verum at an evening Mass in a Cathedral this past week - and to make sure there was no mystery about it - the assembly had an English translation of the text printed in the Mass leaflet. (And before SC jumps in and questions the appropriateness of this text at a Mass, the celebration was a Votive Mass of the Precious Blood and the text seemed appropriate to me.)

johnquinn39 wrote:
There is a lot of talk at the moment about teaching people (the young in particular) Latin, and using archaic and non-inclusive language.

Is there? Where's this then? Which particularly biased journalist might you have been reading? Name your sources and produce appropriate statistics to lend weight to your proposition. Is this happening in your parish, for example? If so, might there be a parallel lobby for occasional celebration in the Goidelic language of Hibernia?

[presbyter]

For example, we taught the children Elgar's 'Ave Verum' for first communions this year

Good for you!

[Dot]

As an active participant in the singing of Elgar's "Ave Verum Corpus" (why call it "Ave Verum" - makes no sense?) I throw out a challenge to those who make sure there is no mystery about it for those who listen -
- give us your best translation of the words.
Also, as I am sometimes tripped up by variations in the Latin - Elgar's "vero" instead of "unda" in Byrd's motet - what is the true version of the Latin???

I cannot believe anyone would dream of actually singing any of the English translations offered by CPDL et al. I have always been happy to make the best sense I can of the words with the limited Latin knowledge that I have.
Dot

[presbyter]

A - what is the true version of the Latin???

Editio typica might be.....

Ave verum Corpus natum de Maria Virgine,
Vere passum, immolatum
In cruce pro homine,
Cuius latus perforatum
Fluxit aqua et sanguine,
Esto nobis praegustatum
Mortis in examine.
O Jesu dulcis,
O Jesu pie,
O Jesu, fili Mariae.

That's the text to the plainsong. There's also this: http://www.users.on.net/~algernon/aveverum/translation.html I despair at the past tense in the sentence beginning "** Referring to the eucharist in the Roman Catholic tradition...... "

The text is 14th century (Innocent VI, 1362) and, I suggest, is expressive of a desire to be able to receive Viaticum. The Black Death was raging throughout Europe in the mid fourteenth century. Given that the clergy were no more immune to infection that anyone else, their numbers must have been considerably reduced (and, I suppose, contact with sufferers for anointing and Viaticum would have made the clergy even more open to infection - fleas can jump!)

So is it a crisis prayer at a time of a lethal pandemic and concomitant clergy shortage? Perhaps so.

(By the way - could it have been the recurrence of the plague in late fifteenth century Europe that stimulated the addition of "Holy Mary....... etc" to the Hail Mary? The first example of the Hail Mary, as we know it (but minus nostrae) appears in 1495. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm)

[presbyter]

In liturgy we must encounter mystery which is also intimate.

FT - I'm sorry but I remain puzzled by this. Do you mean - 'We must encounter Christ intimately through the mysteries we celebrate' ?

[presbyter]

.......... non-inclusive language.............Is there a danger here that we could leave people remote (or removed) from the Word of God?

I humbly suggest that some inclusive language versions of the Scriptures are pretty remote and indeed removed from the Word of God. The New JB is, in my opinion, a prime culprit.
Yet I believe there are now some problems over this very issue in the proposal to adopt NRSV for the Lectionary. Anyone for using the RSV Lectionary that is already authorised? Did it suffer a dismal but undeserved desuetude? I just raise the question.

[presbyter]

"Passive non-participation" - by the way - what is the topic of this thread supposed to be?

[presbyter]

There's also this: http://www.users.on.net/~algernon/aveverum/translation.html

The comment on unda here seems to me to be misleading. Unda means wave - a gushing forth of water (understood) and blood. The word unde means 'whence' and the author might have confused these two words. My Latin (in a rusty state and presently hardly elevated above the level of the Shorter Eating Primer) is not brilliant and I am open to correction if I am in error here - Magister Ursus?

[NorthernTenor]

"Passive non-participation" - by the way - what is the topic of this thread supposed to be?

Therein lies the problem of the thread, presbyter - the original post wan't so much a topic definition as a worried generalisation and a rhetorical question.

[johnquinn39]

"Passive non-participation" - by the way - what is the topic of this thread supposed to be?

Therein lies the problem of the thread, presbyter - the original post wan't so much a topic definition as a worried generalisation and a rhetorical question.

What prompted the thread was my attendence at a 'Youth Mass' recently. The young people (secondry school age), were seated throughout the Mass, and did not join in any of the singing, let alone spoken responses. (The music was provided by a very talented guitarist/singer in the CCM style).

I have also been browsing the Leeds Diocese music list - superb choral music, but the congregational parts and responsorial psalm seem to be absent. To me, both of the above approaches are performance based, and do not allow people to sing/say the parts that are theirs.

Also, at a Mass at St Chad's last year, the children (junior school age) sang 'O bread of heaven beneath this veil, thou dost thy very God conceal'. To me it seems strange that they are being taught this, while their parents and grandparents are singing in contemporary English.

[NorthernTenor]

What prompted the thread was my attendence at a 'Youth Mass' recently. The young people (secondry school age), were seated throughout the Mass, and did not join in any of the singing, let alone spoken responses. (The music was provided by a very talented guitarist/singer in the CCM style).

I have also been browsing the Leeds Diocese music list - superb choral music, but the congregational parts and responsorial psalm seem to be absent. To me, both of the above approaches are performance based, and do not allow people to sing/say the parts that are theirs.

Also, at a Mass at St Chad's last year, the children (junior school age) sang 'O bread of heaven beneath this veil, thou dost thy very God conceal'. To me it seems strange that they are being taught this, while their parents and grandparents are singing in contemporary English.

Actually, John, your elucidation says both more and less than your orginal post (and so reminds me of an FSA faq - don't ask). It cites a youth mass in which the youths didn't avail themselves of opportunities to join in, and a children's mass in which the children joined in a hymn that employs traditional sacral English. Your original post touched on sacral English, but also on Latin and inclusive/non-inclusive language, and it didn't mention the issue of the nature of active participation.

I didn't feel that the content and phrasing of the first post were conducive to reasoned, good-humoured discussion, so didn't join in. I'm afraid the second hasn't encouraged me to change my mind, other than to explain why.

[johnquinn39]

I didn't feel that the content and phrasing of the first post were conducive to reasoned, good-humoured discussion, so didn't join in. I'm afraid the second hasn't encouraged me to change my mind, other than to explain why.

Mea culpa NT. I admit that I have not really thought this out properly. Sorry.

JQ