Teaching the teachers

[johnquinn39]

In my parish, on many Sundays (after thoughtful preparation, research and hard work), the music is often replaced by 'what the teachers choose'. They forbid the singing of the psalm and Alleluia (this is replaced by children reciting these very badly with the mic switched off), the acclamations are paraphrased with very poor happy-clappy settings, and the remaining 'hymns' are usually items where I do not believe that the words have been thought out. (Is it true that 'truth decays', or that 'there's still plenty of time'?).

To be fair, there are also some very good songs requested: Walker's 'Take the word of God...', and some Bernadette Farrell.

Some years ago, I was confronted by a young priest, who after 7 years of seminary training, insisted that Marian hymns were compulsory at Mass (specifiacally at communion), and that the Great Amen must be recited.

Do we need some education here?

[docmattc]

Indeed. (rolls eyes, sighs in resignation)

[HelenR]

But who needs educating - I have just sat through a planning meeting for a First Communion Enrolment Mass trying to explain that it wasnt a good idea to sing the obscure advent hymns that only get sung once a year with words I bearly understand but on the other hand finding it really difficult to justify the absolute drivel of some of the choices of the school. I have found by providing the school with CDs from Chris Walker, Boyce and Stanley and Bernadette Farrell, they have been able to teach new songs and move away from the Israeli mass settings and I havent sung Colours of Day for nearly 3 years.

By the Way, we will be singing a response to the psalm and children reciting a verse each and we have found easily singable alleluias with their own verses which they all enjoy singing. I just have to get the readers to move and not insist on remaining on post to say the words Alleluia after we have sung three verses and the deacon still hasnt moved............but thats another thread.

Do you think that the next edition of M&L could try to include and highlight really good choices of children friendly hymns in the planner and make our job easier.

[johnquinn39]

Some Advent hymns do indeed come up just once a year, but surely, the 'O' antiphons are not obscure, athough they might take a little bit of explaining.

Looking towards next week, there are so many good settings of 'God of hosts....', must we deprive the young of singing the verses of these?

There are some really superb childrens songs (Walker's 'We are the Church', Farell's 'You have called us...'), so, yes, I think this would be useful to be included in the ML liturgy planner.

[johnquinn39]

Good point Nick,
These hymns contain words that are true, are scriptural and refer to God. They also have excellent melodies.

So perhaps they do not qualify as RC children's songs.

[JW]

Hmmm...

Teachers are teachers, not music ministers. If you, as a primary teacher, had to teach Maths, English, Science, Art, History, Music, Design Technology, Geography, Citizenship, RE and PE to achieve better results than other local schools - plus manage a department and do several hours of planning, administration and other meaningless paperwork, (oh! and did I mention school displays?) - you might ask why on earth you are having to prepare something for a Sunday Mass (Sabbath day?) as well - especially if you are then expected to supervise those children at Mass while their parents are shopping!

If children from the school are attending Mass, they need to feel they have some input into in these occasions and need a fairly limited, simple repertoire. Most children are never going to be able to learn a different psalm for every Sunday. Should children be kept in school for an extra couple of hours a week to do the preparation necessary or should time be taken from other parts of the curriculum - perhaps RE or PE or Art or Music - which would you suggest?

It's my view that the Church expects far too much from its catholic teachers. If, as church music ministers, we are concerned about children's music, then we should go into the schools and help them out rather than moan about it (if, like me, you don't do that because you don't have the time, then neither do the teachers).

[johnquinn39]

I see your point JW. But would it really take a couple of hours to teach, for example, a short response and tone from one of the standard published psalters?

Why only teach only simple hymns (nothing wrong with this, there are some very good ones), when more advanced levels are aimed at in other subjects?

[alan29]

There is another issue here.
Why is the school involved with Sunday Mass at all? Surely it is for the parents to take their children to church. How optional is it for the children or staff? I am *beep* sure that if my head expected teachers to dragoon children to Sunday Mass, he would get some very direct replies. I might live in a little enclave, but I have to say I have never heard of such a situation. I was under the impression that the bishops were encouraging sacramental preparation etc to take place in the parish and not in the school.
This is all very puzzling.

[docmattc]

There is another issue here.
Why is the school involved with Sunday Mass at all?

This is a very good point, there is a problem when the parish Mass on a Sunday suddenly becomes a school Mass, the rest of the parish and its musical repertoire are ridden over roughshod by over worked teachers, most of whom are not parishioners and are therefore unaware of what is the norm in the parish. If the children of the parish are not generally involved, something needs to be done, but the solution is not to supplant the parish with the school.

But John's original question was, do we need some education here? Yes, at the very least a realisation that there's more to liturgy than doing my favourite hymns (or the hymns I think kids would like). And as JW says, teachers are not music ministers, not liturgists, and in many cases, not Catholic, so the real questions are, why do we [whoever 'we' are] expect them to be, and if we expect them to be, where is the training? And while schools seem to have touched a nerve, let's not forget that the original question all gave a priestly example too.

[contrabordun]

all of which at least begs the question of what Catholic schools are for, does it not?

[docmattc]

all of which at least begs the question of what Catholic schools are for, does it not?

But let's not try and answer it here!
The opening sentence of the post read

In my parish, on many Sundays (after thoughtful preparation, research and hard work), the music is often replaced by 'what the teachers choose'.

'Teachers' could easily be replaced with 'Father', 'Bill and Edna who celebrate their 80th Wedding anniversary today', etc etc.

There is a wide need for liturgical education to stress that music is there to support the rite, not as an optional add on. In a former parish I was unexpectedly away one weekend, the following week I was greeted with the words "We still sang the hymns", my reply of "But what about the important bits?" was met with confusion.

[docmattc]

They spoke to me about the music for the following Sunday ...

I had a request 3 minutes before Mass was due to start, and the requester was extremely put out that I wouldn't play Bill and Edna's favourite hymn 3 minutes later. I wonder if some folk think they're coming to liturgy or a version of "The organist entertains"

[oopsorganist]

This morning's Mass was hijacked by our primary school. I had a suspicion that they were coming..... actually the HT was there last week as they enrolled the First H C children ( all six of them) but nothing was mentioned... anyway so HT looks surprised and says to me "Oh, I didn't know you would be here, we've brought a tape player!" To be fair, usually I would have emailed them by now to invite them to this Mass and would have therefore been prepared for the hijack.
Luckily we are in the midst of being Fair Trade and there were jobs to do with this, coffee and so on, so I got busy with that.

They turned the first Sunday of Advent into a four hymn sandwich for us. Christ be our Light, Blessed are you Lord, One bread one body, actually I don't know what they did at the end. Good songs but half heartedly sung by a tiny group of children. It was a limp start to the season. All a bit sad.

No one joined in and they were thin on the ground. Etc. Sung responses cradled into life were abandoned for today.
So I am wondering where the HT attends Mass and if this would be the norm for her. And so on. Appreciate they have much to do in our Catholic schools, but then again, I have much to do in my non catholic school. So that doesn't wash with me for an excuse. I have a school choir and if table reversed they would have been knockout, really lively, but all go to African church services ( most of Sunday in their style of worship and community). A pity from my point of view.

It's the lack of energy really, that is what upsets me. Also the lack of communication. The lack of organisation and vision.
The inability of our school to enliven the pupils to any kind of purpose within the Church.

And some people asked, Where are the children? Here is our parish primary leading the Mass with 10 children able to be there. What is going on.

Good or bad PP is getting a CD player attached to the PA. Redundancy or possibilities?
Ho hum. The Fair Trade coffee and sale went well. Swings and roundabouts.

[Southern Comfort]

This morning's Mass was hijacked by our primary school.

<snip>

It's the lack of energy really, that is what upsets me. Also the lack of communication. The lack of organisation and vision.
The inability of our school to enliven the pupils to any kind of purpose within the Church.

Same here this morning.

The 2nd reading was replaced by a dance plus reading on the theme of respect for the Earth. It was all very good but it had nothing to do with the 1st Sunday of Advent. And the presider announced that the school, "continuing the theme they have been working at over the past few weeks", would do what they then did.

The headteacher was there, marshalling the children to do their performance (that's what it was) in the middle of Mass. Yes, I believe that we should make children welcome and integrate them into what we do, and Yes, it was great that the place was heaving with children and young families, but No, I don't think they should be allowed to abandon the liturgical year. They didn't even light the first candle on the Advent wreath.

Who is educating our teachers?

[Clareo]

It's been a long term. All music can be child friendly. It certainly works at my school. Yes, we need support in schools for those staff who would use good quality music if the DCSF would give us the breathing space to think about it. The SSG and the liturgy commissions have the opportunity to support schools in developing good worship without the need to be simply 'child friendly'. For many children school is their only worship community and we all need to support schools to enable them to experience wonderful music and liturgy.