My choir has reached the point where I don't think its viable to continue with it. Because of various perfectly legitimate reasons (elderly parents, shift work etc) I'm now rarely getting half of the choir either at Mass on any given Sunday or at rehearsal. The half at rehearsal may or may not correspond to the half at Mass. I don't think I've had the same bass at rehearsal 2 weeks running since well before Easter!
I can't criticise anyone because the circumstances which mean they can't give the commitment that they used to are all very real and serious issues in their lives, however it means that the standard of what we sing has gone down the pan. We've spent a few weeks learning a piece for Pentecost only to discover this week that there won't be any altos next Sunday so I'll have to rewrite the running order to remove any four part harmony. Its all very demoralising.
My present feeling is that we need to stick to unison singing of known repertoire and that when we break for summer, we should not reconvene in September.
I'm in a slightly odd position of being MD in a parish which isn't my community. While its the church where I worship, getting involved in anything other than running the choir would be interfering.
Anyone's thoughts on this would be welcome.
What to do with a non-viable choir?
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oopsorganist
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contrabordun
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What do the choir members think? Some may be relieved, if it's been a huge struggle, but others may value that 90 minutes choir practice every third week as an escape from real life.
Is there an option for going down the unison / 2-part route but nominating, say, 12 occasions in the year when you will plan more adventurous repertoire? Sometimes people can work around particular dates more easily than a regular weekly commitment.
Good luck - it's a hard decision.
Is there an option for going down the unison / 2-part route but nominating, say, 12 occasions in the year when you will plan more adventurous repertoire? Sometimes people can work around particular dates more easily than a regular weekly commitment.
Good luck - it's a hard decision.
The choir (or "singing group" as we rather more modestly refer to it) at my church rarely reached double figures and struggled to reach four parts. It never attempted in parts anything more ambitious than Taizé chants, in which it generally led the congregation instead of "performing" in its own right. It recent years its numbers have declined to a handful if that and its primary role is now to sing the verses of the psalms and Gospel acclamations, occasionally verses of hymns, and to lead the congregational singing of the hymns and parts of the Mass. The monthly practices have been dropped in favour of a quick get-together before Mass to run though the psalm and acclamation of the day and those attending vary from week to week. It recently lost its leader but another has fortunately stepped into the breach.
But it's still there, the faithful few still seem to enjoy singing and the quality of the psalm singing is still gradually improving. So while I sympathise, Docmattc, I'll add mine to the voices suggesting that you can scale down but urging you not to give up.
But it's still there, the faithful few still seem to enjoy singing and the quality of the psalm singing is still gradually improving. So while I sympathise, Docmattc, I'll add mine to the voices suggesting that you can scale down but urging you not to give up.
Our last 'choir practice' was three plus me: a keen and reliable young German medic, our sacristan who is there for almost everything but has never read music, and another of our longest serving members who complains at anything new, particularly in another language. We had used Siyahamba at Mass the day before and it had romped away quite well, since the musicians all of whom are too busy to attend practices...., made a lovely noise. (We are blessed with excellent alto sax who does his own transposing, his son, on occasional and sensitively restrained trumpet; oboe, violin, flute, and a superb bassoon whom I believe we may have pinched from another SSG member's parish.)
The Mass had been attended by our confirmation candidates, who are also too busy to practise or take part in the music, so we had had 'youth friendly' hymns.
PP was pleased and said same selection should be used for ecumenical Pentecost service Sunday afternoon, (plus Churches Together 'Birthday party for the Church' picnic,) hence my attempt to reinforce Siyahamba at the practice.
Young doctor had done as I asked, learned it online, and did his bit with harmony on the Sunday. But we really cannot do justice to anything much in this situation.
Not one of the other musicians or singers is available Whit pm, as it is bank holiday...
It will be just flute (husband) and me, and the sacristan.
Already the choir few members who turn up on Sundays are also readers Communion ministers, children's liturgy participants, flower and rota organisers....Need I go on?
And yes, very often the ones who have practised the psalm are not the ones there on Sunday to sing.
I am almost at breaking point. Four parts? You're joking.
But I know that our young medic, who is a pediatric consultant dealing with dying children, values his time with us and says it is the one time of the week when the hospital know they cannot reach him.
I hope you can see a way through your difficulties.
The Mass had been attended by our confirmation candidates, who are also too busy to practise or take part in the music, so we had had 'youth friendly' hymns.
PP was pleased and said same selection should be used for ecumenical Pentecost service Sunday afternoon, (plus Churches Together 'Birthday party for the Church' picnic,) hence my attempt to reinforce Siyahamba at the practice.
Young doctor had done as I asked, learned it online, and did his bit with harmony on the Sunday. But we really cannot do justice to anything much in this situation.
Not one of the other musicians or singers is available Whit pm, as it is bank holiday...
It will be just flute (husband) and me, and the sacristan.
Already the choir few members who turn up on Sundays are also readers Communion ministers, children's liturgy participants, flower and rota organisers....Need I go on?
And yes, very often the ones who have practised the psalm are not the ones there on Sunday to sing.
I am almost at breaking point. Four parts? You're joking.
But I know that our young medic, who is a pediatric consultant dealing with dying children, values his time with us and says it is the one time of the week when the hospital know they cannot reach him.
I hope you can see a way through your difficulties.
Re: What to do with a non-viable choir?
Don't give up, Doc. For one thing, for all that a good choir can add beauty to the liturgy by singing challenging and sophisticated music, that's not its main reason for being there. Fostering the active participation of the faithful through the singing gets a mention in GIRM, as does ensuring that the parts proper to it ... are properly carried out, which may be a lousy translation, but it means making sure that words like Alleluia, Hosanna and Amen are sung and not just said. Those are worthy aims, and a choir that's too small or too inexpert for Palestrina will still be getting the important things right if it fulfills them.
I'll share an experience of mine: the choir I direct has been better in the last three years or so than in the nine before that. (I've been doing it twelve years.) Lots of reasons, but in among them I persuaded all the choir members together to reflect on the commitment needed to exercise their ministry effectively. We agreed - the suggestion came from someone other than me, and it was accepted all round - that there had to be a minimum level of commitment below which you count as detracting from rather than adding to what the choir achieves. We settled on "two thirds of rehearsals" as the threshold. Anyone who can't make that, we agreed, probably needs to find some other way of being of service to the parish. Planned absences are recorded in advance in the choir diary, last minute absences notified by a phone call or an e-mail to me, by way of courtesy to the rest of the choir, but also as a way of obliging each person to keep track of how well they're attending.
The first thing that happened was we lost three or four of our more able members. One of them - our absolute worst attender! - told me I was treating them like children. But instantly after that things began to improve, and have kept on doing so - choir practices have been better attended than before, and since I know (in theory! it works more or less) who's going to be around on any Sunday I can choose music that will fit our resources.* The choir itself has grown in number, so that it's bigger now than ever, and we're tackling more and more challenging repertoire because everyone comes to rehearsals.
What this new regime has established is the idea that the church choir isn't the thing that automatically goes to the bottom of the list of priorities, and gets elbowed aside whenever anything more interesting comes up. From time to time I take a choir member aside and have 'the chat' about attendance. Once in a while someone drops out for a few months until their social calendar reorganises itself; more often we talk it through and that person's attendance picks up.
Maybe it's easier to take a firm line with a cathedral choir, and in a parish the whole set-up is too fragile for that kind of robust treatment. My experience has been that elevating the choir in people's priorities has done good things for attendance and effort.
No idea whether any of that will relate to your parish, doc, but I hope it's food for thought.
This I don't understand. Does it mean you can't help organise the parish fair? I'd have thought the opposite; in fact it's probably the best thing you can do to boost choir recruitment!
M.
*There's no planning for illness! Not least when your soprano soloist who happens to be Polish cries off at the last minute, and you've scheduled something with a soprano solo in Polish because it's Pentecost and you've got fifteen Polish children in the group being confirmed...
But we coped! Better than coped, I'd say, and the choir all singing in Polish put a smile on everyone's face. 
I'll share an experience of mine: the choir I direct has been better in the last three years or so than in the nine before that. (I've been doing it twelve years.) Lots of reasons, but in among them I persuaded all the choir members together to reflect on the commitment needed to exercise their ministry effectively. We agreed - the suggestion came from someone other than me, and it was accepted all round - that there had to be a minimum level of commitment below which you count as detracting from rather than adding to what the choir achieves. We settled on "two thirds of rehearsals" as the threshold. Anyone who can't make that, we agreed, probably needs to find some other way of being of service to the parish. Planned absences are recorded in advance in the choir diary, last minute absences notified by a phone call or an e-mail to me, by way of courtesy to the rest of the choir, but also as a way of obliging each person to keep track of how well they're attending.
The first thing that happened was we lost three or four of our more able members. One of them - our absolute worst attender! - told me I was treating them like children. But instantly after that things began to improve, and have kept on doing so - choir practices have been better attended than before, and since I know (in theory! it works more or less) who's going to be around on any Sunday I can choose music that will fit our resources.* The choir itself has grown in number, so that it's bigger now than ever, and we're tackling more and more challenging repertoire because everyone comes to rehearsals.
What this new regime has established is the idea that the church choir isn't the thing that automatically goes to the bottom of the list of priorities, and gets elbowed aside whenever anything more interesting comes up. From time to time I take a choir member aside and have 'the chat' about attendance. Once in a while someone drops out for a few months until their social calendar reorganises itself; more often we talk it through and that person's attendance picks up.
Maybe it's easier to take a firm line with a cathedral choir, and in a parish the whole set-up is too fragile for that kind of robust treatment. My experience has been that elevating the choir in people's priorities has done good things for attendance and effort.
No idea whether any of that will relate to your parish, doc, but I hope it's food for thought.
docmattc wrote:...getting involved in anything other than running the choir would be interfering.
This I don't understand. Does it mean you can't help organise the parish fair? I'd have thought the opposite; in fact it's probably the best thing you can do to boost choir recruitment!
M.
*There's no planning for illness! Not least when your soprano soloist who happens to be Polish cries off at the last minute, and you've scheduled something with a soprano solo in Polish because it's Pentecost and you've got fifteen Polish children in the group being confirmed...
But we coped! Better than coped, I'd say, and the choir all singing in Polish put a smile on everyone's face. No altos eh?
I offer this with some trepidation - expecting the devout to accuse me of offering the Lord "second-best" and the musical purists to accuse me of cultural vandalism - but . . . does it really matter? Of course you yourself will feel that the result is dreadful, and the other parts in the choir may feel uneasy at the absence of a familiar note here and there, but the number of people in the congregation who will be able to tell that you've dropped the alto line (or indeed any other - sorry, altos) will probably be numbered on the fingers if not the thumbs of one hand, and they, if they have come to worship rather than write musical reviews, will not hold it against you!
This is a tricky discussion because talking about a service as a "performance" will bring down the wrath of the godly upon me, but nevertheless, for those who are putting themselves in the firing line some elements of a performance mentality - the setting of standards, the striving to do better, the anxiety not to make a mess of it etc - are not only inevitable, they are quite legitimate, even praiseworthy.
My mantra after some decades of working with not particularly gifted choirs (hope none of them are reading this!) has been: the last thing that people notice is the occasional wrong or missing note (I'm still astonished how true that is - I've even stopped a piece and restarted it and no-one noticed!). What they hear - if it's the music that they are concentrating on rather than its contribution to the liturgy - is first the quality of the words, particularly the vowel sounds, second the overall quality of the sound (make a "nice noise"!) and third the attention to the detail of starts and finishes (particularly the starts). The choir worry, even panic, about the notes; everyone else reacts to the impression.
Of course, you are a bit more exposed if you are doing a bit of unaccompanied polyphony (lucky you!) but even there the first fall-back is to do it with a minimal accompaniment to cover the gaps, or just get the organ/keyboard/whatever you have to play the missing line. If you have a leavening of versatile musicians get the exposed entries or missing major thirds covered by someone else - even yourself! (I do have to admit to a certain unholy - and totally UNpraiseworthy - glee at "putting in" missing or insecure entries in all the under parts) Other options include doubling a weak line (eg some tenors take the soprano - an octave below of course) - there's a good pedigree for this: compare West Gallery music, or check out the Rachmaninoff Vespers.
Don't give in! - if a piece suits its liturgical requirement and is inspirational to the worshipers then the notes on the printed page represent the composer's aspirations, not the word of the law - so get as close as you can - half a loaf is better than no bread! (Just don't try it with something that everyone knows in detail - eg Mozart's "Ave Verum"!)
I offer this with some trepidation - expecting the devout to accuse me of offering the Lord "second-best" and the musical purists to accuse me of cultural vandalism - but . . . does it really matter? Of course you yourself will feel that the result is dreadful, and the other parts in the choir may feel uneasy at the absence of a familiar note here and there, but the number of people in the congregation who will be able to tell that you've dropped the alto line (or indeed any other - sorry, altos) will probably be numbered on the fingers if not the thumbs of one hand, and they, if they have come to worship rather than write musical reviews, will not hold it against you!
This is a tricky discussion because talking about a service as a "performance" will bring down the wrath of the godly upon me, but nevertheless, for those who are putting themselves in the firing line some elements of a performance mentality - the setting of standards, the striving to do better, the anxiety not to make a mess of it etc - are not only inevitable, they are quite legitimate, even praiseworthy.
My mantra after some decades of working with not particularly gifted choirs (hope none of them are reading this!) has been: the last thing that people notice is the occasional wrong or missing note (I'm still astonished how true that is - I've even stopped a piece and restarted it and no-one noticed!). What they hear - if it's the music that they are concentrating on rather than its contribution to the liturgy - is first the quality of the words, particularly the vowel sounds, second the overall quality of the sound (make a "nice noise"!) and third the attention to the detail of starts and finishes (particularly the starts). The choir worry, even panic, about the notes; everyone else reacts to the impression.
Of course, you are a bit more exposed if you are doing a bit of unaccompanied polyphony (lucky you!) but even there the first fall-back is to do it with a minimal accompaniment to cover the gaps, or just get the organ/keyboard/whatever you have to play the missing line. If you have a leavening of versatile musicians get the exposed entries or missing major thirds covered by someone else - even yourself! (I do have to admit to a certain unholy - and totally UNpraiseworthy - glee at "putting in" missing or insecure entries in all the under parts) Other options include doubling a weak line (eg some tenors take the soprano - an octave below of course) - there's a good pedigree for this: compare West Gallery music, or check out the Rachmaninoff Vespers.
Don't give in! - if a piece suits its liturgical requirement and is inspirational to the worshipers then the notes on the printed page represent the composer's aspirations, not the word of the law - so get as close as you can - half a loaf is better than no bread! (Just don't try it with something that everyone knows in detail - eg Mozart's "Ave Verum"!)
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docmattc
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- Location: Near Cambridge
Thanks for all your replies. I realise that I'm probably much luckier than most people- when we're all there we have nearly 20 in the choir, not that full numbers has happened almost in living memory! Of these though there are of course a handful of key confident musicians, without whom it all goes rapidly pear shaped.
What had really got me down was finding out that half the choir would be missing at Pentecost after I'd asked a few weeks earlier when no-one, apparently, had any plans to be away. This on top of several weeks of singing at a much lower standard than I know they're capable of because so many weren't there. Our really low point was 2 on the 3rd sunday of easter. We all know how it is- might be 6 sops, but if the key one isn't there to start the descant it doesn't happen etc etc
I'd planned to start Pentecost with Bob Hurd's 'Veni Creator Spiritus' which builds up steadily in parts, hence the frustration at having to ditch it, after several week's effort in teaching it, on discovering the lack of altos, and it really needs the alto line.
Getting home after the practice two weeks ago I just questioned whether it was worth it. Of course it is, but, as someone once said in a wonderfully mangled metaphor, sometimes you have to climb the mountain to see the light at the end of the tunnel. An ice axe and some strong rope would come in handy at the moment!
We don't sing huge amounts in four parts, but having rehearsed something for weeks its depressing to hear it sung much worse on the Sunday than it could be because the two basses have never actually rehearsed together, and the key alto is away etc. As we all know, when they sing brilliantly, the choir takes the credit, but when it goes wrong, its the director's fault. Quaeritor I know the congregation almost certainly doesn't notice it going wrong, but I do and it bothers me!
We had a chat last week at practice and agreed that a recruitment drive is in order, just a voice or two extra in key places would take the pressure of everyone. Recruitment is neded anyway because, while we're not at the warbly old lady sound, it won't be far off if we don't get some younger blood in.
I also suggested that I needed to know, as far as possible, when people couldn't make it so that I could plan accordingly. I don't mind working with what I've got, but I need to know what I've got!
VML I too have the problem that many of the choir also do other liturgical ministries. I once suggested that as choir members are already ministering music they shouldn't really be doing anything else, the reply of "Are you suggesting I'm to be denied my right to minister the Eucharist?" is wrong on so many levels that I haven't followed it up. I wonder though what the reaction would be if I wasn't present to play the organ for the 1st half of Mass because I was doing the children's liturgy... Sometimes I think visitors must think that singing is a prerequisite for ministering the chalice as they all come from the choir.
I'm in a somewhat odd position as about 5 years ago I was simply the bloke who came across town to cover for the organist. Almost by accident I'm now both the organist and choir director in somoeone else's parish. I really don't feel a sense of ownership, or belonging in the parish (and the folk who lived there for the last 465 years and 'always done it this way' remind me of that when I've suggested non-musical liturgical changes).
What had really got me down was finding out that half the choir would be missing at Pentecost after I'd asked a few weeks earlier when no-one, apparently, had any plans to be away. This on top of several weeks of singing at a much lower standard than I know they're capable of because so many weren't there. Our really low point was 2 on the 3rd sunday of easter. We all know how it is- might be 6 sops, but if the key one isn't there to start the descant it doesn't happen etc etc
I'd planned to start Pentecost with Bob Hurd's 'Veni Creator Spiritus' which builds up steadily in parts, hence the frustration at having to ditch it, after several week's effort in teaching it, on discovering the lack of altos, and it really needs the alto line.
Getting home after the practice two weeks ago I just questioned whether it was worth it. Of course it is, but, as someone once said in a wonderfully mangled metaphor, sometimes you have to climb the mountain to see the light at the end of the tunnel. An ice axe and some strong rope would come in handy at the moment!
We don't sing huge amounts in four parts, but having rehearsed something for weeks its depressing to hear it sung much worse on the Sunday than it could be because the two basses have never actually rehearsed together, and the key alto is away etc. As we all know, when they sing brilliantly, the choir takes the credit, but when it goes wrong, its the director's fault. Quaeritor I know the congregation almost certainly doesn't notice it going wrong, but I do and it bothers me!
We had a chat last week at practice and agreed that a recruitment drive is in order, just a voice or two extra in key places would take the pressure of everyone. Recruitment is neded anyway because, while we're not at the warbly old lady sound, it won't be far off if we don't get some younger blood in.
I also suggested that I needed to know, as far as possible, when people couldn't make it so that I could plan accordingly. I don't mind working with what I've got, but I need to know what I've got!
VML I too have the problem that many of the choir also do other liturgical ministries. I once suggested that as choir members are already ministering music they shouldn't really be doing anything else, the reply of "Are you suggesting I'm to be denied my right to minister the Eucharist?" is wrong on so many levels that I haven't followed it up. I wonder though what the reaction would be if I wasn't present to play the organ for the 1st half of Mass because I was doing the children's liturgy... Sometimes I think visitors must think that singing is a prerequisite for ministering the chalice as they all come from the choir.
I'm in a somewhat odd position as about 5 years ago I was simply the bloke who came across town to cover for the organist. Almost by accident I'm now both the organist and choir director in somoeone else's parish. I really don't feel a sense of ownership, or belonging in the parish (and the folk who lived there for the last 465 years and 'always done it this way' remind me of that when I've suggested non-musical liturgical changes).
Do you have a choir diary? One that is out at every practice and any time the choir are together? In that diary they can write up in advance when they have holidays or big family parties etc. Even, if they know in advance, when they are on the rota for Communion or reading.
It is a little thing but may make a difference. It could be that others will rally round if they can see in the diary that half the choir will be missing.
It is a little thing but may make a difference. It could be that others will rally round if they can see in the diary that half the choir will be missing.