What are the origins of the greeting:
V/ "Dominus Vobis Cum."
R/ "Et cum Spiritu tuo"?
I've never really understood "And with your (thy) Spirit.
The anglicans use,
V/ The Lord is here,
R/ His Spirit is with us.
This has a nice feel to it though not perhaps the best translation.
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Be joyful, keep the faith.
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Et cum spiritu tuo
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nazard
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There is a bit of information at
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114a.htm
but it is not really definitive. Does anyone know any more?
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05114a.htm
but it is not really definitive. Does anyone know any more?
In origin "your spirit" is a Semitic expression just meaning "you". You get the same kind of thing (paraphrases for pronouns) in other languages and cultures - one I know about is medieval Russian, where the expression "I a sinner" is just a way of saying "I" in literary texts.
But once the expression was adopted in Christian liturgy, more meaning was read into the word "spirit" - since it was said or sung by the assembly to the Bishop, an interpretation emerged that said the word was used because the bishop acts in the power of the Spirit. (St John Chrysostom says this in a sermon, and he lived in the second half of the fourth century.)
So you could argue that translating "et cum spiritu tuo" as "and also with you" misses a nuance that's been held to be in the phrase since earliest times, but is possibly specious in origin.
Interesting information here, and some grumpy discussion here. An good source looks to be Joseph A. Jungmann, S.J., The Mass of the Roman Rite, volume I, p. 363ff., especially footnote 16; at least that's what it says in the middle of the grumpy discussion.
M.
But once the expression was adopted in Christian liturgy, more meaning was read into the word "spirit" - since it was said or sung by the assembly to the Bishop, an interpretation emerged that said the word was used because the bishop acts in the power of the Spirit. (St John Chrysostom says this in a sermon, and he lived in the second half of the fourth century.)
So you could argue that translating "et cum spiritu tuo" as "and also with you" misses a nuance that's been held to be in the phrase since earliest times, but is possibly specious in origin.
Interesting information here, and some grumpy discussion here. An good source looks to be Joseph A. Jungmann, S.J., The Mass of the Roman Rite, volume I, p. 363ff., especially footnote 16; at least that's what it says in the middle of the grumpy discussion.
M.
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contrabordun
- Posts: 514
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Is it just me, or, do the following (from mcb's first link, above), contradict?
1. Why has the response et cum spiritu tuo been translated as and with your spirit?
The retranslation was necessary because it is a more correct rendering of et cum spiritu tuo. Recent scholarship has recognized the need for a more precise translation capable of expressing the full meaning of the Latin text.
7. What do the people mean when they respond “and with your spirit�
The expression et cum spiritu tuo is only addressed to an ordained minister. Some scholars have suggested that spiritu refers to the gift of the spirit he received at ordination.
The answer to q1. stresses the importance of precision and expression of the full meaning, but q7 implies that there is scholarly dispute about what the meaning is?
1. Why has the response et cum spiritu tuo been translated as and with your spirit?
The retranslation was necessary because it is a more correct rendering of et cum spiritu tuo. Recent scholarship has recognized the need for a more precise translation capable of expressing the full meaning of the Latin text.
7. What do the people mean when they respond “and with your spirit�
The expression et cum spiritu tuo is only addressed to an ordained minister. Some scholars have suggested that spiritu refers to the gift of the spirit he received at ordination.
The answer to q1. stresses the importance of precision and expression of the full meaning, but q7 implies that there is scholarly dispute about what the meaning is?
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contrabordun
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 4:20 pm
Counting blessings...it might have been "thy" spirit...
and we do seem to have got away without "for us men and for our salvation...", although there will doubtless be a frantic rearguard action on the part of those who want to the fact that church Latin doesn't evolve (much) to avoid acknowledging that the English language does.
and we do seem to have got away without "for us men and for our salvation...", although there will doubtless be a frantic rearguard action on the part of those who want to the fact that church Latin doesn't evolve (much) to avoid acknowledging that the English language does.