So, the liturgical blogging world is full of discussion of the post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation - except for here! The link below should take you to the text, in a language of your choosing.
http://www.vatican.va/latest/latest_en.htm
I'm particularly interested in the debate about the translation of 'aequum est' - and since I have no real knowledge of Latin, except that learnt by heart over the years, was hoping that somebody smarter than me might be able to give an opinion. Is it the case that what in English has been rendered as 'could be celebrated in Latin' ought to be rendered as 'should be celebrated in Latin'?
Latin - exceptis lectionibus, homilia et oratione fidelium, aequum est ut huiusmodi celebrationes fiant lingua Latina.
English - with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, such liturgies could be celebrated in Latin.
Sacramentum Caritatis
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
Whilst my Latin's no good I teach French and a quick scan of the relevant passage in the French translation shows a wholly more positive approach.
La langue latine
62. ...excepté les lectures, l'homélie et la prière des fidèles, il est bon que ces célébrations soient en langue latine; et donc que soient récitées en latin les prières les plus connues (183) de la tradition de l'Église et éventuellement que soient exécutés des pièces de chant grégorien. De façon plus générale, je demande que les futurs prêtres, dès le temps du séminaire, soient préparés à comprendre et à célébrer la Messe en latin, ainsi qu'à utiliser des textes latins et à utiliser le chant grégorien; on ne négligera pas la possibilité d'éduquer les fidèles eux-mêmes à la connaissance des prières les plus communes en latin, ainsi qu'au chant en grégorien de certaines parties de la liturgie. (184)
La langue latine
62. ...excepté les lectures, l'homélie et la prière des fidèles, il est bon que ces célébrations soient en langue latine; et donc que soient récitées en latin les prières les plus connues (183) de la tradition de l'Église et éventuellement que soient exécutés des pièces de chant grégorien. De façon plus générale, je demande que les futurs prêtres, dès le temps du séminaire, soient préparés à comprendre et à célébrer la Messe en latin, ainsi qu'à utiliser des textes latins et à utiliser le chant grégorien; on ne négligera pas la possibilité d'éduquer les fidèles eux-mêmes à la connaissance des prières les plus communes en latin, ainsi qu'au chant en grégorien de certaines parties de la liturgie. (184)
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docmattc
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Re: Sacramentum Caritatis
Reginald wrote: Is it the case that what in English has been rendered as 'could be celebrated in Latin' ought to be rendered as 'should be celebrated in Latin'?
Not had chance to read it yet, but another question worth considering (not that we'll ever know the answer) is that of the meaning of the text in German (assuming Benedict penned the original in his native tongue) which has been rendered into Latin and then rendered into English?
Whilst the Latin may be the 'master text' is it already a step removed from the original?
We often get into a pickle about precise wordings of texts, but when these texts are translations of translations, how faithful to the precise intent of the author can they be?
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presbyter
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There doesn't seem to be any "should" about it, to my mind. Yet the French - it would be a good thing if.... - doesn't seem to grasp the Latin quite either - IMO.
Aequum = making equal - or - being fair, or just or kind to people. Whoever is responsible for the international celebration is being asked to consider what is the best way in which a polyglot gathering can celebrate - and the answer might well be to use Latin - but I don't think the document says you must do.
I think I'll side with the French though.
PS - there's 96 other paragraphs of theological reflection in this document. We should read them all several times before debating anything - IMHO.
Aequum = making equal - or - being fair, or just or kind to people. Whoever is responsible for the international celebration is being asked to consider what is the best way in which a polyglot gathering can celebrate - and the answer might well be to use Latin - but I don't think the document says you must do.
I think I'll side with the French though.
PS - there's 96 other paragraphs of theological reflection in this document. We should read them all several times before debating anything - IMHO.
Nick Baty wrote:The *beep* above was the perfectly acceptable words for a bundle of sticks (or a bassoon). Suspect the censor thought I was making derogatory comments about puffs.
In case anyone is any doubt, the 'censor' is a feature of the software on which this message board runs, and no human agency is involved. Personally, I don't *beeping* care what sort of *beeping* language you might *beeping* use.
musicus - moderator, Liturgy Matters
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Presbyter is right; it is far too early to be jumping to conclusions (or jumping ship). Let's study the documents carefully and await the help of better linguists than ourselves (mcb excepted) before announcing the end of all things.
There's much work for liturgical commissions to do here; ours makes a start on Monday next.
There's much work for liturgical commissions to do here; ours makes a start on Monday next.
musicus - moderator, Liturgy Matters
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Nick, don't join the Methodists yet (no disrespect intended towards the people that provide my community with a church)!
The passage I was wondering about specifically refers to international celebrations where, for example, if it were to be in Chinese/Arabic/Danish/Icelandic I for one could not readily join in with the responses. My sense is that, on the assumption that many Catholics can sing/say a Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus it's being suggested that for such gatherings it might be best to use a neutral language that most will/should (given what Vat II, Paul VI, GIRM and Celebrating the Mass have to say on the matter) be able to join in with. The question of understanding does not, I think, apply to prayers that we know by heart in the vernacular. I've already said that I don't really know any Latin, but I can sing/say most of the parts of the Mass that I need to - and without worrying about the meaning because I just 'know'.
At first (and second) reading I think it to be very 'balanced'. How controversial can it be to request faithfulness to the Liturgical books and proper reverence for the Eucharist?
Thanks to Presbyter for counselling proper reflection on the text. I've already heard it described by a liberal priest friend as "a load of right-wing nonsense" and by a traditionally minded priest friend as "not everything one had hoped for". Perhaps we should agree to reconvene here again in a couple of weeks time?
The passage I was wondering about specifically refers to international celebrations where, for example, if it were to be in Chinese/Arabic/Danish/Icelandic I for one could not readily join in with the responses. My sense is that, on the assumption that many Catholics can sing/say a Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus it's being suggested that for such gatherings it might be best to use a neutral language that most will/should (given what Vat II, Paul VI, GIRM and Celebrating the Mass have to say on the matter) be able to join in with. The question of understanding does not, I think, apply to prayers that we know by heart in the vernacular. I've already said that I don't really know any Latin, but I can sing/say most of the parts of the Mass that I need to - and without worrying about the meaning because I just 'know'.
At first (and second) reading I think it to be very 'balanced'. How controversial can it be to request faithfulness to the Liturgical books and proper reverence for the Eucharist?
Thanks to Presbyter for counselling proper reflection on the text. I've already heard it described by a liberal priest friend as "a load of right-wing nonsense" and by a traditionally minded priest friend as "not everything one had hoped for". Perhaps we should agree to reconvene here again in a couple of weeks time?
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presbyter
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Nick Baty wrote:All too, too depressing.
Benedict has nailed his colours to the mast and is determined to take the liturgy away from the people.
No he hasn't. To repeat Reginald's comment - this paragraph is about international gatherings where there is little hope of the assembly sharing a common language. The Pope is suggesting a way in which all the people can actively join in the prayer of the liturgy at such an occasion. The paragraph is not saying a parish should celebrate in Latin.
If you read the endnote, you will find there is no new teaching/discipline here. The recommended universal Latin repertoire was published in Jubilate Deo (previous thread on this somewhere in this forum)
Now let's all read the whole document ..... thank you musicus
Fair point.
But I can't help seeing that as a much more gentle statement than we might have expected from Joseph Ratzinger before he assumed the Petrine Office. He could have chosen to quote from Vat. II
"Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites."
"Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."
or even the introduction to Paul VI's Jubilate Deo, which also goes much further than the present document.
"In presenting the Holy Father's gift to you, may I at the same time remind you of the desire which he has often expressed that the Conciliar constitution on the liturgy be increasingly better implemented. Would you therefore, in collaboration with the competent diocesan and national agencies for the liturgy, sacred music and catechetics, decide on the best ways of teaching the faithful the Latin chants of "Jubilate Deo" and of having them sing them, and also of promoting the preservation and execution of Gregorian chant in the communities mentioned above. You will thus be performing a new service for the Church in the domain of liturgical renewal."
Instead of which he says words to the effect of, don't exclude the possibility of the laity learning their responses in Latin and perhaps even Gregorian chant.
Given what we may presume of his personal liturgical tastes I think we could give the Holy Father credit for being a bridge builder in this instance.
I've been trying to think of the origin of the proverb "There is no offence where none is taken" for over an hour now and have come to the conclusion that it must be a line given to Mr Spock in Star Trek! I think Benedict XVI has done his best to avoid upsetting anyone, which sadly doesn't change the fact that I have friends who will automatically dismiss Sacramentum Caritatis on the grounds of its author and that it's 'interference from Rome'.
Now, as Presbyter and Musicus both said earlier....
But I can't help seeing that as a much more gentle statement than we might have expected from Joseph Ratzinger before he assumed the Petrine Office. He could have chosen to quote from Vat. II
"Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites."
"Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."
or even the introduction to Paul VI's Jubilate Deo, which also goes much further than the present document.
"In presenting the Holy Father's gift to you, may I at the same time remind you of the desire which he has often expressed that the Conciliar constitution on the liturgy be increasingly better implemented. Would you therefore, in collaboration with the competent diocesan and national agencies for the liturgy, sacred music and catechetics, decide on the best ways of teaching the faithful the Latin chants of "Jubilate Deo" and of having them sing them, and also of promoting the preservation and execution of Gregorian chant in the communities mentioned above. You will thus be performing a new service for the Church in the domain of liturgical renewal."
Instead of which he says words to the effect of, don't exclude the possibility of the laity learning their responses in Latin and perhaps even Gregorian chant.
Given what we may presume of his personal liturgical tastes I think we could give the Holy Father credit for being a bridge builder in this instance.
I've been trying to think of the origin of the proverb "There is no offence where none is taken" for over an hour now and have come to the conclusion that it must be a line given to Mr Spock in Star Trek! I think Benedict XVI has done his best to avoid upsetting anyone, which sadly doesn't change the fact that I have friends who will automatically dismiss Sacramentum Caritatis on the grounds of its author and that it's 'interference from Rome'.
Now, as Presbyter and Musicus both said earlier....
We're probably more alike than might seem at first glance. I imagine that much of what we say here is coloured by our own parish situation. Trawl through my back catalogue of posts and you'll see that I'm an advocate of 'the middle way' too, but where you are trying to convince people around you that modern music is OK I'm trying to convince my crowd that there was good music around before 1970 (and some of it in Latin!) - and that a lot of good music's been written since 1975!!!
Pity Reginald trapped in a land where there are only 3 chords! This Easter, as with previous years, I'll be running back to Clifton to indulge my catholic Catholic tastes - a cathedral where plainchant and polyphony sit side by side with music that still has wet ink!!
Pity Reginald trapped in a land where there are only 3 chords! This Easter, as with previous years, I'll be running back to Clifton to indulge my catholic Catholic tastes - a cathedral where plainchant and polyphony sit side by side with music that still has wet ink!!
Re: Sacramentum Caritatis
docmattc wrote:Not had chance to read it yet, but another question worth considering (not that we'll ever know the answer) is that of the meaning of the text in German (assuming Benedict penned the original in his native tongue) which has been rendered into Latin and then rendered into English?
FWIW, The German says "Es ist gut, wenn außer den Lesungen, der Predigt und den Fürbitten der Gläubigen die Feier in lateinischer Sprache gehalten wird", which I would translate as "It would be good if apart from the readings, sermon and prayer of the faithful, the celebration in Latin were retained."
No compulsion, then, more a sense IMHO of not wanting to lose part of our tradition. In my own Mass community we’re more worried about more recent traditions, lost after we ceased to be an independent parish and became one of two churches in a larger one; reintroduction of Latin apart from the occasional Taizé chant would be unlikely to go down well.