Gathering of Witnesses

[mcb]

Here's an interesting article by Rocco Palmo (who writes for the Tablet), on a recent day of consultation between the US Bishops' liturgy committee and liturgical musicians of all shades of opinion. They're looking to rewrite the influential Music in Catholic Worship - the document that (if memory serves) gave us the threefold division of aims for liturgical music, namely musical, liturgical and pastoral. Remarkable to note the warring factions coming together for respectful discussion. In this country, thankfully, we don't have the same hostility accompanying the polarisation of opinions; perhaps because things are so much worse here than in the US, and those of every liturgical persuasion can see that our main problem is the slum culture that prevails in too many places. But a bit more dialogue between the traditionally-minded and the liberal-minded would be good for us too, wouldn't it?

This forum too, I reckon, would benefit from a few more putting a conservative point of view. But we tend to chase them away, don't we?

M.

[docmattc]

This forum too, I reckon, would benefit from a few more putting a conservative point of view. But we tend to chase them away, don't we?

To be fair, my experience is that we've only chased away those who have not actually put their point of view, but have been intolerant of any other.
Discussion that is "dispassionate and reasoned" from any view point is well received. There have been plenty of postings that have been neither of the above!

But you're right mcb, a more diverse opinion base can only be a good thing.

[musicus]

This forum too, I reckon, would benefit from a few more putting a conservative point of view. But we tend to chase them away, don't we?

I agree. Only yesterday, I received an e-mail from someone (not an SSG member) who I had invited to the AGM/Lecture/Mass. A self-confessed conservative, he remarked that our website, while professing to be balanced, gave the impression of bias towards the modern rather then the traditional. I replied that it made a change, since for as long as I can remember we have been characterised as 'that plainsong lot!'.

The reality, as those of us who have attended Summer Schools and other SSG events know, is that the SSG is as varied as its many members; neither at one extreme or the other. I have always liked to think of the SSG - and, indeed, my own pastoral music ministry - as being like the steward in the Gospel, bringing the best of the old and the new out of the store cupboard.

I will admit to feeling sad for those (and those to whom they minister) who are convinced that only the old or only the new has any value. The former are antiquarians and latter are iconoclasts, and both are as ignorant as each other.

[presbyter]

.......our main problem is the slum culture that prevails in too many places........

Is it? I'm not sure what you mean by that mcb.

[mcb]

Is it? I'm not sure what you mean by that mcb.

Apologies if the words look harsh, but I think 'slum culture' isn't too far from being an apt description of the state of liturgical music in some places. There are too many parishes where standards of liturgical and musical understanding are so low that the way the Mass is celebrated falls significantly short of what we should hope for and expect. In my experience it's fair to say of a great many parishes that the said-Mass-with-70s-junk-hymns has become liturgically normative. In some of these places, people aren't aware of what things should be like, don't have the resources or training or leadership to move away from the way they do things now, and have lived with it so long they wouldn't even welcome the suggestion that things ought to be different.

Examples: a parish I know of - the largest in the diocese - has only hymns (a mixture of 1970s 'folk' hymns and old favourite devotional hymns) by way of sung participation in Sunday Masses. The parish priest routinely puts on a CD of Celtic mood music as background music for the Communion procession. In another parish in the same city, again there is no participation other than through singing hymns, but this time the Communion CD of choice is Abba's I have a Dream. A parish I know at the other end of the country had Andrew Lloyd Webber's Love changes everything to accompany the veneration of the cross last Good Friday.

Of course, I don't know how widespread cases like these are, apart from personal experience and personal contacts; I've also been to parishes where the music is very very good. But if there are places where they truly don't know that the psalms are songs, or that the Roman Rite itself is intrinsically musical, or where the parish priest can say that the only reason for singing in Church is for the purpose of community singalong (no, really, a very senior member of the diocesan clergy said this to me in all seriousness), then it seems to me that the musical progressives and the arch-traditionalists who are customarily at each others' throats in the US, in this country would find, in the main, common cause.

M.

[VML]

I am responding to three threads: James MacMillan’s thoughts, Oops’ request for guitar arrangements, and this thread.

I can understand JM’s objection to dubious ‘modern’ music, but does he really have to condemn guitars in general just because so many people refuse to do any more than scrub / strum the chords?

Psalm 150 tells us to praise the Lord with lute and harp. In the absence of these, plucked strings surely still have a place in church, so long as they are played by musicians willing to progress from the basic 1,4,5, and blend with such instruments as flutes and violins etc.

I have not used ‘Bind us together’ for years, but our visiting mid week organist last month played it very loudly exactly as written for organ: Take a look! The arrangement is dire, and I think I know why:

These 1970s songs for lazy guitarists were never intended for organ, but if they were, I can only assume that the organists were expected to build on the basic three-chord trick, and improvise a proper accompaniment, just as, actually, experienced guitar players should, working around the harmonies, and not think that bashing a full chord is the only option. It is unfortunate that because players who can actually read guitar music are such a minority, there are few if any hymn and church music arrangements written out.

The guitar is the almost the cheapest and most available instrument and the easiest to get some kind of pleasant sound from, so it is the most likely one to be self taught, badly. From the JM point of view, it does not help that there are classical and steel string acoustics, and electrics, and once you are using electric guitars, you change the whole feel of the music. But he should not, IMHO, be lumping all guitars together.

The ancient v. modern kind of discussion as mcb has brought in here makes me feel rather inadequate.

When we hear such condemnation of ‘modern’ music and the determination to return to predominantly plainsong, or things on that line, I wonder what is the place of our composers’ group. If what I have encountered at the group is a fair sample of what is being composed and used in our parishes, something good is happening, and re-reading the report of JM’s input at the meeting at Leicester last year, it seems we’re doing something right.

I would love to have enough people in the choir to use more ‘trad’ music and some decent polyphony. As with every parish, it is the art of the possible, and we sing most of the Mass parts we should, and don’t do too badly, but our PP needs encouragement to sing the doxology. He did for a while but has recently stopped.

He has a remote controlled CD player connected to the PA. Funerals tend to include such gems as Danny Boy and The Fields of Athenry, (and last month, a ‘second reading’ from The Prophet by Kalil Gibran.)

I agree with mcb that there are many parishes where there is a great deal to be desired. I am too timid to stick my neck out and, for instance, suggest that the next parish should do things differently. It takes time and commitment at deanery level, and there could be fruitful discussions and work locally. Maybe….

Apologies for such a lengthy post,

V.

[nazard]

I feel that there are various problems with music in parishes which rely on amateur volunteers for their music.

There is a great lack of training and expertise. This affects all instruments. The organ has a slight advantage here that the sight of two or more manuals, a pedalboard and a bristling array of stops all controlled from a rather penitential looking bench is very offputting to the uninitiated. The guitar comes off worse because of a widespread culture of low limited scope playing and a wide availability of books with title along the lines of "Learn to play guitar in some ludicrously short time." There are even liturgical guitarists who need to progress to I, IV, V. The electronic keyboard also suffers from auto harmony and built in rhythms which appeal to the tyro.

The compilers of currently available hymnbooks do not seem to want to drop material that was transiently popular a long time ago, but is of very limited appeal. Does anyone still use "Kum ba ya" at mass? Other material is not obviously relevant to Christianity except in the most general terms, for example, "Peace is flowing like a river," which does not mention God. As far as I know, only the Catholic Hymnbook actually includes an endorsement by a Bishop, and although it is a useful book, it is too limited in its appeal for most parishes.

Another problem is that much of this music is in a style which developed circa 1970, and was based on one strand of pop music in the popular in the late fifties and early sixties. As commercial music, melody seems to be at a low now. In consequence, the guitar hymns have their main popularity with a section of the congregation aged between sixty and seventy. Those outside that age group do not identify with it. My own children and their friends see it as hopelessly "uncool."

The overriding problem to me is the lack of musical training in the clergy. They are left as the final arbiters of what is done in the parishes, but often have no idea what is possible, what ought to be aimed for, and in many cases, what the expression "in tune" means. Some even have the attitude that anyone who asks for it can have a place on the music rota. No one is to be denied their ministry.

The effect of these problems is that I and many others have been given a sort of aversion therapy to modern music. However, I am often pleasantly surprised when I am away from home or catch a little on tv or radio. However, any attempt to introduce such an item dies rapidly at the hands of the untrained.

Does anyone have even the vaguest idea of a way forward?

[oopsorganist]

er..... no

having just been through a recent service where we made shift to sing the Psalm and seen the faces looking at me blankly.... what I was thinking was get me out of here, this is not what I want to do with my Sunday mornings!

And last Sunday I mellowed and did Bind Us Together cos I know they like it. On the organ. It was dreadful. I play it dreadfully and it sounds like a fairground organ gone wrong. Still, I think they enjoyed it and had a good sing.

What I need is a choir, or a cantor. Or a humble animateur. Just someone who will gladly take on some of the singing so that when we do so called new stuff (Ubi Caritas, Firmly I believe and truly, Where is Love and Loving Kindness, as well as Inwood, Bob Hurd etc etc) I don't feel like a lemon. I can't sing anyway and best not to try! Find me a choir. No one has time to come to practises which are held every week. They are all too busy. We need Deanery/Diocese led movement with someone who can lead and organise and model and to pool resources with musicians occasionally joining up interparish. It is too much for each to do alone.

[mcb]

I feel that there are various problems with music in parishes which rely on amateur volunteers for their music.

If you mean the remark as an assessment of the root cause of the trouble, I think it's way off target. But perhaps you don't mean it that way? In any event, 'amateur volunteers' are the lifeblood of the Church, in music as in all things. Any idea of a way forward has to be one which seeks to confirm and strengthen the Church's volunteer army of committed laypeople. The key must be to establish a commitment the Church in this country has never had before, to formation, support and guidance of lay liturgical ministries.

But my saying that doesn't get us any nearer a genuine practical way forward. You're right to an extent, Nazard: the clergy too don't have adequate formation in these areas, and yet they're saddled with the responsibility of being the overseers of musical activities in their parishes. In the worst cases the lack of formation leaves them feeling powerless, and so they do nothing, and are persuaded that it doesn't matter. Maybe in the end it comes down to bishops rather than priests - how many act as though they thought liturgy and music mattered, and give genuine leadership and support in these things?

M.

[ssgcgs]

Uncertain of which thread of three I am developing, I post here primarily in reaction to vml. I can testify first hand to James MacMillan's affirmation of what Composers' Group presented at Leicester. Admittedly, there were no guitars. The comments about guitars in the Scotland on Sunday article are unfortunate and rather sweeping.

There seems to be too much weight attached to the accompaniment, making each verse different, when often that is not the key to a good sung response. I would rather have no accompaniment and an audible response from the congregation than a musical feast with inaudible singing. I thought CG was musically a little self-indulgent at times, but having read recent comments, maybe not; and that's from one who is driven by harmony rather than by melody!

I don't think that the problem of quality lies with the use of amateur volunteers. Given the choice of a qualified and an unqualified music leader in my particular situation, I have no problem with choosing the unqualified, so long as you're competent on your instrument to the point where your accompaniment is supportive. I would choose to play keyboard rather than guitar because of my own level of competence in each.

There is a bit of a musical cultural divide between the two choirs in our parish, and it would be lovely to bridge that. The Parish Priest takes the line that the two choirs should be left to get on with their tasks; he does not wish to intervene. T'would be nice if we could come together for "respectful discussion" though.

Here endeth my bits and pieces.

CG Sec

[nazard]

mcb asked if I meant that amateur volunteers are the cause of the problem. To clarify what I meant, the phrase was just there to show that my thoughts do not apply to those few parishes (mainly cathedrals) which can and do afford to pay professional musicians. They are very largely outside my experience. I am an amateur musician trying to get better myself, but I doubt if I will ever be worth going out of your way to hear.

The problems which follow are the ones that I and the musicians of neighbouring parishes seem to have.

It is relatively easy to state a problem but difficult to find a solution. Any ideas are more than welcome.

Everyone who helps, amateur or professional, has my thanks and encouragement.

[oopsorganist]

Actually I don' t think it is easy to name the problems. Here are a few.

Different parishes have different problems. Not sure if there is really an issue about trad or mod. in parishes, more about the four hymn sandwich thing really. Perhaps hymns should be banned. I'm up for that. There is some beautiful stuff for Acclamations and Responses and so on. No is ever going to say that though because they would be unpopular for doing it so ingrained is the format. The four hymn sandwich is now traditional. Uh OH.

Some places like our parish do not have enough amateur volunteers to get things really going well. We could do with more time from others to support what we are doing and support changes we have made. It is not a priority for the majority of folk .

The lack of knowledge about what could should ought to be sung or done is a problem for us.

Personally I don't mind if the music is traditional or modern although I would not be best happy to sing Kumbya anywhere. Both trad and so called modern need the interests and abilities of musicians to keep them going and keep them alive. A bit more harmony singing would be nice.

It was with the aims the mcb started the thread. In our parish improving the music (although some would not call it improvement) to follow the liturgy had led to some, but not enough, talk about pastoral changes. we started off by trying to work on the music, then our aims were to do better things to support the Liturgy and now it has become more about why there is so little pastoral function in our parish. People ask, for instance, why do we have no social events? The answer is that financially secure people do not need these because they do not have time. And why don't the children from our primary school come to Mass? And who puts the money in the plate then? And the music development has even led to the organization of pastoral events like a Social Justice Mass and so on.

What I am getting around to saying is that the music is maybe an indicator of the health and well being of a parish community. I often think that our battles and issues are just a reflection of what the parish is really like....... fractured, warring, a few amateur helpers who take control of everything without training or knowledge and who react with surprising venom if they cannot have their own way, otherwise general apathy, ignorance and a general lack of pastoral action. A body of people who stand back and wait for someone else to take action and then wander away because they do not like the busy body dominants who take over in a vacuum. No one goes to Parish Council meetings . Nothing is organized for young people. Etc. And the PP is lovely but hopelessly out of touch with reality. That is the slum culture bit then. Sounds as if the said Mass with four seventies junk hymns is really the least of the problem. I am sorry if this is not reasoned debate but this is how it feels to me. I am not always sure that it is a church which I wish to belong to.

And if the music in the parishes is indicative of their health what of the Diocese which we are but a part of? How healthy are they? How supported do organists, singers and guitarists feel generally in their work?
Probably they feel undervalued and isolated at the very least. I actually feel very stressed sometimes. And that is before any repertoire choices have to be made!

Good job I can post on here. Thanks for the debate it is interesting.

[organist]

I always think of Sister Madeleine's wise words "Never despair - there are little lights shining out like liturgical beacons all over the place". How good it would be to get priests and people to attend training days and the like! We have become a committee church. Too much talk and not enough action! Put out into the deep for a catch but this means we have to look into our own lives first. Yes music can be a good barometer of parish life. The choir can be brilliant but there can still be arguments with the guitarists. Join together for a meal and a chat! Go to the pub - get to know each other. Strive for a common parish repertoire of good Eucharistic settings that all groups can use. The Celtic liturgy seems to be popular but alas they are not acclamations, lovely as they are! But I'd rather have them sung to that setting than not at all. Purge the hymn books! The bishops should take a lead - too busy going to meetings?

[gwyn]

too busy going to meetings?

Guffaw.