Ratzinger, Liturgy and England

Merseysider · Post by **Merseysider** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:14 am

Interesting piece in today's Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... wstop.html

gwyn · Post by **gwyn** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:06 pm

I trust and hope most fully that we will very soon return to having the Catholic Faith taught in all catholic schools and that they will experience sound liturgy.

I recently asked a ten year-old lad at our local RC primary school what a Sacrament was. You'd swear I'd asked him to recite the Gettysburg Address. Sad indeed. Such is the decay that has taken place.

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:25 pm

Gwyn wrote:I recently asked a ten year-old lad at our local RC primary school what a Sacrament was. You'd swear I'd asked him to recite the Gettysburg Address. Sad indeed. Such is the decay that has taken place.

Hmmmm - well as to what the names of the seven sacraments are, I think I could probably tease that out of our ten-year-olds but as to what a sacrament is........

What's your definition Gwyn (without rushing to the Catechism)?

gwyn · Post by **gwyn** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:57 pm

Presbyter asked:

What's your definition (of a sacrament) Gwyn?

My definition would be along the lines of:
A visible sign of an inner grace instituted by Christ for our sanctification.

He's an intelligent lad. Had he ever been given a definition he would have been able to repeat and explain it. Maybe I just caught him at an off-moment. I have those too, (more than ever these days).

There is a need to teach the faith clearly and simply though. My worry is that generations are being missed. So many young people can reel-off the names and lyrics of rock bands, tell me the score of almost any first division football match including who scored, who was sent off and so forth (edit in italics): and yet not be able to name six of the apostles.

I and many like me learned prayers and hymns of substance while in the non-catholic state school system in the late fifties, I didn't always understand them then, but they were well planted and would form a a core of a rich resource of prayer and praise for the rest of my life, my understanding of what I'd learned steadily increasing. I worry that those who have gone through our education system in the past 20 years will not have been given such a rich resource from which to draw in adulthood.

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:24 pm

Gwyn wrote:A visible sign of an inner grace instituted by Christ for our sanctification.

OK - not at all wrong and similar to the penny catechism answer but, in my opinion, it falls into a mist of mystical incomprehensibility ( c f Canon Drinkwater's pioneering work in catechetics in the last century ). "Sensible" might be better that visible, I think - all our senses are engaged, not just the eyes - but then what's "inner grace" and "our sanctification"? And do we need to know?

I'm not getting at you - by the way - honest! Yet I do come across devout and elderly people daily who can still rattle off chunks of the catechism and not have a clue what they mean.

Don't you think that catechesis on the sacraments might best be done through a study of the rites (lex orandi, lex credendi)?

and yet not be able to name six of the apostles.

and also how many apostles there are? But then, is this knowledge necessary for salvation?

I worry that those who have gone through our education system in the past 20 years will not have been given such a rich resource from which to draw in adulthood.

Well, please don't make such a sweeping statement without viewing what pupils are indeed getting. The schools' RE syllabus in Birmingham, for example, is highly detailed, rich in content and very professionally organised - a flavour of which will be found on the diocesan website.

But then, a school can teach the content of our faith until the teachers are blue in the face and pupils can pass exams in it ..... without the faith being "caught" at all.

Those elderly who still don't understand the theological virtues in their scholastic definitions in the penny catechism don't need to be able to define them. All you've got to do is look at their lives to see they live them! The liturgy does its (God's) work without too much need for intellectual exercise - transforming people into "sacraments" themselves.

What we must try to do for our youth is surely encourage them to celebrate the liturgy in their lives ..... and on the Lord's Day too. But as we witness the disintegration of family - and catholic family - life, the phrase "on a hiding to nothing" sometimes nags in the cerebral cortex. Nevertheless, we continue to preach the Gospel "with words if necessary".

By all means, let's give the young in our schools a firm foundation to their developing faith according to their abilities. But any form of gnostic tendency will be stamped upon severely by Benedict XVI. Salvation does not depend on what one knows.

Faith is "caught" not taught.

P.S. - if any mod thinks this is off topic - I got Ratzinger, Liturgy and Middle England in it

musicus · Post by **musicus** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:46 pm

presbyter wrote:P.S. - if any mod thinks this is off topic - I got Ratzinger, Liturgy and Middle England in it

Au contraire, I think you are right on topic (which I take to be the contents of the article that Merseysider has drawn our attention to).

I can't help thinking that the Holy Spirit may have a few surprises up her sleeve for all those "liberals" and "conservatives" who are busily making the Pope in their own image.

Musicus (moderator)

contrabordun · Post by **contrabordun** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:31 pm

I'd agree with that. Phil Space has been hard at work as usual, but there's really nothing to do except just wait and see what actually happens.

Was strange to hear the words "with Benedict, our Pope, " in the Eucharistic Prayer this morning though, wasn't it?

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:34 am

musicus wrote:I can't help thinking that the Holy Spirit may have a few surprises up her sleeve for all those "liberals" and "conservatives" who are busily making the Pope in their own image.

Yep. Archbishop of Canterbury there ...... and (for your info) as Cardinal Ratzinger, he has always addressed Fr Graham Leonard by his former C of E title as "My Lord Bishop". The signs Benedict is giving concerning reconciliation between the East and West are a wonder to behold. Pray that this may be a fillip for the Orthodox churches to "get their act together" a little more and perhaps even have a pan-Orthodox conference.

Benevenio · Post by **Benevenio** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:42 am

The Telegraph article refers to "Papa Wojtyla".

Does that mean the Roman Church is now governed by Papa Razzi?

Merseysider · Post by **Merseysider** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:57 pm

Gwyn wrote:A visible sign of an inner grace instituted by Christ for our sanctification.

Does that mean marriage is not a sacrament as it wasn't "instituted by Christ"?

contrabordun · Post by **contrabordun** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:19 pm

I've always been given to understand that marriage was a special case of what used to be called penance.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:57 am

Benevenio wrote:The Telegraph article refers to "Papa Wojtyla".

Does that mean the Roman Church is now governed by Papa Razzi?

Check out this: http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/

Don't all rush to join...

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:01 am

Chris wrote:Check out this: http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/

I confess to knowing someone who has got the T shirt - "Truth is not determined by a majority vote..."

It seems the club is being transformed
http://www.popebenedictxvifanclub.com/

Benevenio · Post by **Benevenio** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:26 pm

contrabordun wrote:I've always been given to understand that marriage was a special case of what used to be called penance.

I know someone who swears that that the correct liturgy for a wedding is a requiem mass. He claims marriage is just a lingering deathâ€¦

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:52 pm

contrabordun wrote:I've always been given to understand that marriage was a special case of what used to be called penance.

Well in the case of the Orthodox churches - who deal with annulments differently to ourselves - it can be! A second marriage in church is indeed a penitential rite - I think the couple are barred from Communion for seven years (but I could be wrong - nowhere to look this up immediately to hand).