Society of Saint Gregory

I'm amazed how vast an output of wonderful music J.S. Bach managed with only pen & manuscript paper. I wonder if he'd had a PC or Mac with Sibelius or Finale software would he have wasted much valuable composing time defagging, re-installing, upgrading, fault-finding, web-surfing or on-line chatting and so got less music churned out?

Seriously though, I finds Sibelius software fantastic for creating taylor-measured music to suppliment our parish liturgial resources in Abergavenny.

Technology can save you time and it can also cause you to waste time in the ways you describe, Gwyn. I used to be very happy with my manuscript paper, pencil and eraser. Now, one advantage of using the software is that you have a form of manuscript which can be transmitted electronically. This will be great when we get music from Composers’ Group on to the SSG website, won’t it?

I’m not one to churn out music; it’s a very deliberate and slow process. Is the inspiration really instant for you? If so, you’re lucky. Come and share some stuff with us, at Leicester for instance on January 17th. You don’t know how welcome you would be!

Gwyn wrote:J.S. Bach... and so got less music churned out?

I bet he'd have made more use of cut-and-paste...

Gwyn wrote:I find Sibelius software fantastic for creating taylor-measured music

...leaving the Finale vs Sibelius debate to their own websites , in what way do you "tailor-measure" your music?
I'm intrigued by that turn of phrase...

I think I may have mixed my metaphors there, maybe either tailor-made or made-to-measure would have been better employed to describe responsorial psalms and other mass music composed to match my choral resources.

Not for the faint-hearted, but the more daring may wish to evaluate this free software which claims to be a cut above the rest. It does not appear to use a graphical interface, so may be more suited to composers who are also familiar with computer programming.

Aside from the suggested aesthetic improvement, I wonder if it might also provide some solution to the difficulties surrounding theft/plagiarism of original music scores?

LOL. I can't see Lilypond catching on with busy church musicians. I used to program in BASIC, FORTH and AMPLE (a music programming language) for fun. These days, I prefer to compose onto music paper, whether real (rarely) or virtual (Finale or Sibelius).

M

I have found that Noteworthy Composer fits my rather limited requirements. It may not have the glamour of Finale or Sibelius but it is shareware.

It is a little-known fact that UK churches can buy software at educational rates, plus the VAT. So Finale 2004 (Mac or Windows) is £159 + VAT and Sibelius 3 (Mac or Windows) is £253 + VAT. Less than half-price, I think. These prices are from Music Village (01708 771900).

M

musicus wrote:UK churches can buy software at educational rates, plus the VAT. ... Sibelius 3 (Mac or Windows) is £253 + VAT.

Are you sure, Musicus? According to the Sibelius web-site the educational price is available to schools/colleges/students, but no mention of churches or charities. When I bought Sibelius (about 4 years ago, I think) I had a vigorous exchange of correspondence on the subject with the charming Sibelius sales people, who charmingly confirmed that the educational price didn't apply to churches in the UK, despite the fact that it does in the US. Which was charming.

I mention this because you have to register the software on line before it works, and in principle the Sibelius people could withhold that registration if the customer's educational credentials don't check out.

Maybe I'm being too cautious. Is there anyone out there with a working educational copy of Sibelius bought in the UK for church music purposes?

Buying from the US worked for me, but I believe that particular loophole may have been closed. The place I bought it from now advertises the educational version as only for sale to US customers.

M.

musicus wrote:It is a little-known fact that UK churches can buy software at educational rates, plus the VAT.

I certainly obtained Finale 2003 at educational price for church - it was marketed as ..... wait for it ......... "Finale Theological" !

mcb wrote:Are you sure, Musicus? According to the Sibelius web-site the educational price is available to schools/colleges/students, but no mention of churches or charities.

Hmm. You may be right about Sibelius. However, I was quoting from the current Music Village catalogue, and they certainly sell to churches. I don't think the current Sibelius 3 registration process would throw you out, because that just asks for a name and an organisation - it's automated. But it probably would be wise to check this before committing your money.

When I have time, I may pursue this with Sibelius Software.

M

I purchased an educationally discounted Sibelius 1.0 some years ago via post from Canada. Being a church organist/choir leader (in the UK) entitled me to the discount.

I've since purchased the updates to version 2 and version 3 direct from Sibelius UK, there's never been a problem.

F.W.I.W. Unless you're creating precise page layouts or very VERY finely measured scoresheets, Sibelius wins hands down. Sibelius is user-friendly in the extreme, Finale is rather less intuitive and needs to be grappled with, miandering around menu and sub-menu to find the means to achieve what you desire.

Sibelius has a very active user forum at their web site too thus making tech support everlasting. The Finn brothers are regular contributors to the forum.

I don't know of any other software package - music or otherwise - that so generously supports it users.

If you have a load of Finale scores lying on your hard drive somewhere then fear not, Sibelius can import them.

Gwyn wrote:I've since purchased the updates to version 2 and version 3 direct from Sibelius UK, there's never been a problem.

Yes, I should have mentioned, I too have had no problem with getting upgrades from Sibelius. It's getting the initial discounted version which may not be straightforward for UK church musicians.

M.

Gwyn wrote:Finale is rather less intuitive and needs to be grappled with, meandering around menu and sub-menu to find the means to achieve what you desire.

I will very quietly disagree with you.

Things I have observed about computer users:
1. Only Mac users insist that they are right and the other 98% of the world is wrong.
2. Both Sibelius users and Finale users seem terribly partisan about how much better their money was spent than it would have been wasting it on the other product.

Perhaps it is just the way my mind works, but I have never had a problem with Finale, not even the Finale 3 version (which, on reflection, was pretty awful to use when now compared with the latest version, Fin2K4). And, for the record, you do not meander around menus and sub-menus; it is point and click... and I have found the support to be forthcoming whenever I have needed it, both from the States (on programming matters) and from the UK distrbutor, etcetera.co.uk, who are always helpful, and who have been known to give the religious discount without the stated required proof of a letter from your parish, just over the telephone. User forums exist too, and many third party program extensions (plugins) have been written too - even one that allows you to write chant neums correctly.

Before anyone asks, no, I have no experience of Sibelius whatsoever. But, let's not turn this forum into a product slanging match - you can get enough of that looking at Sibelius' and Coda Music's sites. I refer you instead to Alan Smith's excellent article comparing the two products in a past Music and Liturgy, which basically concluded that they are both good products and yet both still have their weaknesses in certain areas. You stick to yours and I'll keep to mine... quietly!

I say sir! We're British !!!

I use Finale as well as Sibelius, I certainly wouldn't say that one is any more deserving of our hard-earned cash than the other. If I need precise, fine control over layout then Finale wins hands down over Sibelius.

"But for simplicty and ease of use Sib's the bee's knees" he said softly.

In the case of both Sibelius, Finale, indeed any computer prog; rubbish in - rubbish out.

But, let's not turn this forum into a product slanging match

Good idea. No one has yet (to the best of my knowledge) slanged.

Ah well! Enough of this frivelous banter chaps. I'm off to sit in what remains of the wimbledon-cursed sunny weather.

Be joyful, keep the faith.