Epiphany

[old barmaid]

I am astonished that no-one has commented in this forum on today's liturgical and calendrical absurdity foisted on us by ou Fathers in God, their Lordahips of England and Wales and their bureaucracy. i refer to the fact that this evening, Saturday, January
1st, New Year's Day, large numbers of Catholics will be celebrating the Epiphany. A farcical
situation. Incidentally, what mathematical genius in said bureaucracy decided that
January1st/2nd was nearer to January 6th than next Saturday/Sunday January 8th/9th?

[Southern Comfort]

what mathematical genius in said bureaucracy decided that
January1st/2nd was nearer to January 6th than next Saturday/Sunday January 8th/9th?

Not in said bureaucracy but in Rome...... The rules in force for the Roman Calendar and Lectionary state that Epiphany can never be later than 8 January, even though we all know that 9 January this year is closer to the 6th than the 2nd is. I queried this myself with our Liturgy Office last year. Our bishops are blameless in this matter.

[gwyn]

Birmingham Oratory will (I'm advised) celebrate Mass on The Feast of the Epiphany in the Traditional Rite on the 6th January.
And Solemn High Mass at Abergavenny too. Sorted.

[presbyter]

Birmingham Oratory will (I'm advised) celebrate Mass on The Feast of the Epiphany in the Traditional Rite on the 6th January.

Of course they will - the Oratory has been the Birmingham home of the Extraordinary Form for many years (but was not always thus - in the 1990s, the city centre home of the LMS was St Catherine's on Bristol Street)

The Oratory will also be celebrating the Epiphany (Ordinary Form in English and in Latin) today (1st/2nd January).... following the diocesan ordo.

Please do not ask me what the Ukranians are celebrating in the city centre this weekend - I do not have their calendar.

[gwyn]

Please do not ask me what the Ukranians are celebrating in the city centre this weekend - I do not have their calendar.

Chortle.

[gwyn]

Presbyter mentiones;

Please do not ask me what the Ukranians are celebrating in the city centre this weekend - I do not have their calendar.

Are they easy to find? I've sung in a choir at at Divine Liturgy of St. J. Ch., but I'd love to attend such a celebration one of these days.

[presbyter]

Are they easy to find?

Every fourth Sunday of the month - 2.00 pm - St Catherine of Siena, Bristol Street, Birmingham - short walk from New Street Station.

[gwyn]

Diolch Tad.

[musicus]

Birmingham Oratory will (I'm advised) celebrate Mass on The Feast of the Epiphany in the Traditional Rite on the 6th January.

Of course they will - the Oratory has been the Birmingham home of the Extraordinary Form for many years (but was not always thus - in the 1990s, the city centre home of the LMS was St Catherine's on Bristol Street)

The Oratory will also be celebrating the Epiphany (Ordinary Form in English and in Latin) today (1st/2nd January).... following the diocesan ordo.

Please do not ask me what the Ukranians are celebrating in the city centre this weekend - I do not have their calendar.

So - and I ask this in all innocence & ignorance - if you celebrate Mass in the EF, is it proper [sorry!] to follow the 'old' calendar (whichever that may be)?

[docmattc]

So - and I ask this in all innocence & ignorance - if you celebrate Mass in the EF, is it proper [sorry!] to follow the 'old' calendar (whichever that may be)?

In 2008 the LMS submitted a dubium to PCED (to clarify CBCEW dubium earlier) which said:

the Episcopal Conference can legitimately transfer Holydays of obligation with the approbation of the Holy See, it is also legitimate to celebrate the Mass and Office of those feasts on the days prescribed in the calendar of the liturgical books in use in 1962 with the clear understanding that, in accordance with the legitimate decision of the Episcopal Conference, there is no obligation to attend Mass on those days.

In general EF follows the calendar in force in 62, OF the new one. I think we've discussed this somewhere here before.

[JW]

musicus wrote:
So - and I ask this in all innocence & ignorance - if you celebrate Mass in the EF, is it proper [sorry!] to follow the 'old' calendar (whichever that may be)?

In 2008 the LMS submitted a dubium to PCED (to clarify CBCEW dubium earlier) which said:

the Episcopal Conference can legitimately transfer Holydays of obligation with the approbation of the Holy See, it is also legitimate to celebrate the Mass and Office of those feasts on the days prescribed in the calendar of the liturgical books in use in 1962 with the clear understanding that, in accordance with the legitimate decision of the Episcopal Conference, there is no obligation to attend Mass on those days.

In general EF follows the calendar in force in 62, OF the new one. I think we've discussed this somewhere here before.

So, if the Episcopal Conference has transferred the Holyday of Obligation, does this mean that those who (legitimately) celebrate the original day have not met their Obligation (because the Obligation Day has been transferred)? I don't think the quote above makes this clear, though it may be sorted elsewhere - giving us 2 for 1 as far as certain Holydays are concerned.

[nazard]

I assume that if you went to OF mass today you fulfilled both your Sunday obligation and your Epiphany obligation. On the other hand, if you went to EF mass today, you have only fulfilled your Sunday obligation. Or there again, I may be completely on the wrong track.

As a slight aside, is there any way by which we could get the bishops to reverse this decision? I would rather celebrate feasts on their correct days.

[gwyn]

I would rather celebrate feasts on their correct days.

Indeedy-doody.

[docmattc]

There is no longer an obligation attached to (in this case Thursday) 6th Jan because it is transferred to the Sunday. Those who celebrate on 6th have not met any obligation as no such obligation exists.
There is an interesting conundrum with the calendars in that by being bi-form, one can miss (or celebrate twice) various feasts, for instance Christ the King is the Sunday before All Saints in the EF and the last Sunday of the year in the OF. IMHO we could do with a unified calendar, but it ain't going to be easy to acheive.

In a previous thread, SC suggested that a Mass on the correct day, but using the incorrect texts did not fulfil an obligation. If this is true (and I'm not sure it is) then all bets are off!

CBCEW originally published the following following their dubium to PCED:

in the Roman Rite, whichever Form of the liturgy is being celebrated, the Holydays of Obligation are held in common. Where the obligation has been removed and the Holyday transferred to the Sunday, the Epiphany of the Lord, the Ascension of the Lord and Corpus Christ, this is to be followed in both Ordinary and Extraordinary celebrations of Mass.

I believe the LMS, unhappy with this, submitted their own, and got the answer quoted above.(see also here)

I would suggest that anyone wanting the Bishops to reverse their decision should write to their Ordinary and suggest they would rather celebrate on the given days. But the Church is not a democracy!

[Southern Comfort]

I think it has been mentioned on this forum before that what the Bishops of E&W actually wanted to do what keep the feasts on their calendar days, but remove the obligation. Rome would not allow them to do so.