But what if we didn't "just say wait"?

[quaeritor]

I've struggled - though not without interest - in the deeps of the similarly-titled topic (would that I knew how to make a link!), but I sense that I'm being left behind somehow.

Is anything actually happening - for the practically oriented ones of us, that is? - and in the Birmingham Archdiocese to be specific - or nationally indeed? Is there a website or page or anything through which one can catch up with what's actually being done to introduce the new translation?

Bemused as ever

Q

[presbyter]

...............
Is anything actually happening - for the practically oriented ones of us, that is? - and in the Birmingham Archdiocese to be specific

Q

Patience Q - something will happen

[docmattc]

Is there a website or page or anything through which one can catch up with what's actually being done to introduce the new translation?

The SSG homepage has a link at the bottom to news of the new translation. We will try our best to keep it up to date with developments as and when news becomes available.

[Southern Comfort]

The big problem is that no one yet knows what the implementation date will be.

(1) It is reported that Rome confidently expects to give the recognitio to the entire Missal at the end of April.

(2) Just what the text will be that is given recognitio is not known. Vox Clara apparently made changes at its meeting in January, but no one knows what they were. It is rumoured that they will make further changes at their meeting at the end of March/beginning of April.

(3) What that means in practice is that the earliest practical date for starting the new Missal will be Easter or more sensibly Pentecost 2011.

(4) However, the Order of Mass might be introduced earlier, ahead of the rest of the Missal. (Those with long memories will remember that, the last time we went through this, the Order of Mass came along in 1969, followed in early 1970 by the Holy Week rites and then the JB and RSV Lectionaries. The rest of the Missal was not complete until 1973 and was not published here until 1975.)

(5) However, Bishops' Conferences, including our own, have requested modifications to the Order of Mass. No one knows if any of these will be granted. It is possible that what we all think is the final text of the Order of Mass could turn out not to be final after all. It happened recently. Composers in the US busily started to set the Order of Mass text which the US Bishops had sent to Rome, only to find that it had been modified when the text came back to the US. However, it is thought that any further changes will probably not affect those parts sung by the people. For example, "Christ has died" will probably not be reinstated.

(6) If Rome does not list the changes Vox Clara have made to the Missal text since the last time that Bishops' Conferences saw it, it will take time to go through the text line by line to check what has been altered. That will add to the time required to prepare the Missal for publication. Even without that, UK publishers are saying 8-10 months. The Americans need at last 12 months (but they have a huge people's disposable missalette operation, so they are planning not to implement until Advent 2011).

(7) A further complication is the revised Lectionary, which will use NRSV for scripture and the latest revision of Grail for the psalms. Volume 1 (Sundays and major feasts, but not the weekdays of Advent, Lent, etc) is already in draft form, and so could be ready around the same time as the Missal, and the Missal could be delayed so as to synchronise the publication dates of both.

(8) Talking of the revised Grail psalms, it is reported that Rome will issue a recognitio to the US Bishops at the same time as the Missal ─ i.e. the end of April. The Congregation apparently want all the changes to happen simultaneously. It is also reported that the UK Bishops have not yet formally asked for recognitio of Grail IV.

Presbyter is correct that something will happen. The question is what and when.

A major problem is the question of catechesis.

Priests are already being informally sensitized to the new texts in an encouraging way. Dioceses are starting to prepare schemes for catechesis in parishes and schools spanning anything from 6 to 12 months before the implementation date, once this is known. However,

(a) this could mean catechesis taking place based on texts that might not actually be in use for some time after the catechesis happens. The solution to this particular issue is phasing in the Order of Mass so that the changes take place gradually and each change can be accompanied by the appropriate catechesis.

(b) there is the question of music settings for the new Order of Mass. These will need to be learned ahead of the point at which the new texts are introduced, so that they are ready to go when the texts start to be used. This means that effectively people will be exposed to new texts before the catechesis on them has actually been done. Hmmm.... No one has addressed this problem yet, and it may be that there is no solution to it. In the meantime, publishers are wondering how far in advance of implementation they will be allowed to publish settings of the texts. Once again, this will all depend on the actual implementation date.... and of course on whether any further changes to the text of the Order of Mass affect what composers have already produced or are producing.

So the question at the moment is not one of "What if we didn't just say wait?" but "How long, O Lord, how long?"

In the light of the débâcle in South Africa, it is clear that we are going to need all the catechesis we can get, and this takes time. Better to take that time, rather than rush ahead and make a mess of it.

[quaeritor]

Superb post, SC - now at least I know not only that I don't know but also what I don't know!.

Just two questions, sparing my ignorance - what is "Catechesis" (yes, I know what I think it means but it's always dangerous to assume - vide discussions elsewhere about the danger of translating by the nearest apparent English word) and could we have a reference/link to the "debacle in South Africa".

I suppose a phased introduction, a bit at a time, in logically structured bits would smack too much of modern implementation efficiency to appeal here?

Q

[Southern Comfort]

Just two questions, sparing my ignorance - what is "Catechesis" (yes, I know what I think it means but it's always dangerous to assume - vide discussions elsewhere about the danger of translating by the nearest apparent English word) and could we have a reference/link to the "debacle in South Africa".

I suppose a phased introduction, a bit at a time, in logically structured bits would smack too much of modern implementation efficiency to appeal here?

Catechesis, I think, means both education and formation. What we actually need is not just education on the whys and wherefores of the new texts (defence of which is not without its problems) but, in my opinion, rather more of a deeper formation in how we actually celebrate the liturgy. If we can use the texts as a way in to people reflecting on what they do, why they do it, and how they do it ─ and this means both clergy and laity ─ then this an opportunity.

Here's the primary link to the South African business: http://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/southern-africa-church-in-uproar-over-new-english-language-mass-translations/. See also http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2009/03/and-with-your-fiasco-in-first-run-new.html.

Despite one or two claims to the contrary (including a recent one in the Tablet), my spies tell me that things are still chaotic over there, with some people using the new texts, some still refusing to use them at all, and others using them but under ongoing protest. Most people seem resigned but unhappy, and are still hoping that "all this will pass" and they can return to the former texts. You can see some comments attached to the popular articles listed at the foot of the Southern Cross page linked to in the CNS report.

As far as the phased introduction is concerned, this is precisely what will happen, as I said in my previous post:

(a) this could mean catechesis taking place based on texts that might not actually be in use for some time after the catechesis happens. The solution to this particular issue is phasing in the Order of Mass so that the changes take place gradually and each change can be accompanied by the appropriate catechesis.

The most likely scenario will be a five-phase introduction and catechesis based on (1) "And with your spirit", (2) Introductory Rites of the Mass, (3) Liturgy of the Word, (4) Liturgy of the Eucharist (which could be subdivided so that the Communion Rite was treated separately) and (5) Concluding Rites.

[FrGareth]

The big problem is that no one yet knows what the implementation date will be.
(4) However, the Order of Mass might be introduced earlier, ahead of the rest of the Missal. (Those with long memories will remember that, the last time we went through this, the Order of Mass came along in 1969, followed in early 1970 by the Holy Week rites and then the JB and RSV Lectionaries. The rest of the Missal was not complete until 1973 and was not published here until 1975.)

In short ... when can books (as opposed to disposables) be printed? And what kind of books?

Altar editions...
People's editions...
People's editions including freshly composed music that might be needed for advance catechesis?
People's editions including readings that may change if NRSV/Grail IV come in?
Mash-ups of limited missal texts with baptism or funeral rites... (wouldn't it be wonderful if these were included in the new people's book that everyone's going to need to have as part of the catechetical process...)

And what happens about the Divine Office - where feasts will have the old collects whereas the same collect at Mass will be the new translation...
(and feasts added since the 1970s will appear in the Missal but not in the Office...)

And... will the UK Missal include the propers for Wales? With a small selection of hymns for all the UK national saints?

Will the UK Missal include the Children's Eucharistic Prayers now that Rome wants to decouple them from the Latin original? (If there is a separate book of children's Eucharistic prayers it's a pain photocopying and pasting in the collects of the day - unless a children's missal with some "common" child friendly collects were to be produced ... and that means waiting for another recognitio... just imagine... what if Rome DIDN'T say "wait"...?!

[VML]

And to whom do you address all these questions to ensure they are taken into consideration?

[presbyter]

And what happens about the Divine Office - where feasts will have the old collects whereas the same collect at Mass will be the new translation...

well, we've got something fairly similar at the moment - ICEl at Mass and Glenstal/Crichton in the Office (although the late JDC was never too happy with what was produced, as they'd done it all in a rush)

[Southern Comfort]

And... will the UK Missal include the propers for Wales? With a small selection of hymns for all the UK national saints?

Will the UK Missal include the Children's Eucharistic Prayers now that Rome wants to decouple them from the Latin original? (If there is a separate book of children's Eucharistic prayers it's a pain photocopying and pasting in the collects of the day - unless a children's missal with some "common" child friendly collects were to be produced ... and that means waiting for another recognitio... just imagine... what if Rome DIDN'T say "wait"...?!

Just to respond to these two points:

(1) The new Missal in England and Wales is being shared with Scotland and Australia, and perhaps Ireland too. The national propers of each country will be included in calendar sequence within the proper of saints according to recent reports, rather than in national supplements at the back. This seems rather user-unfriendly, if it happens. We'll have to plough through saints of the other countries in order to find what we're supposed to be using, rather than keeping one ribbon marker in the proper of saints and another in the appropriate national supplement, as happens at present.

(2) The EPs for Masses with Children will not appear in the new Missal, although the EPs for Reconciliation will. The reason for this is that they do not appear in the Latin Missale Romanum which, as we are learning, governs everything. Those used to using US Sacramentaries which currently have the prayers at the back will be disapppointed. In my view the UK Bishops should press hard on this issue.

As a point of further information, ICEL will in due course issue a new translation of the EPs for Masses with Children, following the requirements of Liturgiam Authenticam. It's worth recalling that these prayers were originally written in French and German (the SSG journal Music and Liturgy carried unofficial English translations of these texts when they first appeared). They were then translated from those languages into Latin, and from thence into the different vernacular languages, including being retranslated back into French and German. The French and German versions showed considerable differences by the time the texts came back. Really daft, one might well think, although the Latin (which I have never looked at) may of course have been a travesty of the original texts and account for the differences.

[presbyter]

(2) The EPs for Masses with Children will not appear in the new Missal, although the EPs for Reconciliation will. The reason for this is that they do not appear in the Latin Missale Romanum .........

Ahem - sorry SC - they are indeed bound in the Latin editio typica of the MMII (2002) Missal - see Appendix VI - and I agree, they should be bound in the revised translation of the Missal too.

[presbyter]

although the Latin (which I have never looked at)......

Here's a bit for you then EP2

Vere amantissime Pater,
hoc gaudium nobis praebetur,
ut tibi gratias agamus
et una cum Iesu Christo in Ecclesia tua exsultemus.
Sic nos dilexisti, ut pro nobis conderes hunc mundum
immensum et pulchrum.

Gloria tibi Domine, qui nos homines amas.

Sic nos diligis, ut nobis des Iesum Filium tuum,
qui ad te nos adducat.

Gloria tibi Domine, qui nos homines amas.

Sic nos diligis, ut in Christo nos congreges,
et per Spiritum adoptionis unius familiae filios nos facias.

Gloria tibi Domine, qui nos homines amas.

Pro tanti amoris dono
tibi gratias agimus
cum Angelis et Sanctis,
qui te adorant, canentes:

Sanctus……

[Southern Comfort]

And there you have the problem in a nutshell. Sic nos diligis ("You so loved us"), which is not an accurate translation of the original text. And so it will go on and on and on....

Gloria tibi Domine, qui nos homines amas.

I confidently predict that if this acclamation is translated LA style as "Glory to you, O Lord, who love us people" (the present version is "Glory to you, for you love us"), then the revised translation will never be used.....

As far as being in the MR is concerned, it is Rome that says they are not in the Missal and therefore cannot be included. No idea why they insist on this. Probably because they feel very threatened by the whole thing?

[Gabriel]

To respond to Presbyter's query.
In the third reprinting the third edition in 2008 the Eucharistic Prayers for children which had been in an appendix - (where the introductory note suggested it was unlikely they would be used in Latin) - were removed and replaced by the texts for a Pentecost Vigil (which had previously been issued for the Millennium). Many corrections were made to the Latin text at the same time. The Congregation indicated the EPCs would be published separately. If I understand correctly ICEL had already issued a Grey Book of the EPC before this happened.

[presbyter]

To respond to Presbyter's query.
In the third reprinting the third edition in 2008 the Eucharistic Prayers for children which had been in an appendix - (where the introductory note suggested it was unlikely they would be used in Latin) - were removed and replaced...........

Humph! You mean I wasted £150 on an Altar Missal that ain't even a proper Latin text? Why on earth was it published if the Latin text itself was not finalised? Do I get a refund if I take it back in its original packaging and request a free update? Do I send it back to the SCDWDS with a Proulxian comment? (See other thread )