Payment?

[pirate]

Merseysider, love, at least now you can do what youdo do without having that hideous worry in the back of your head about what to go without so you can pay the next gas bill. People who have a surplus in the bank at the end of the month might not appreciate what it's like to go month after month doing without little treats buying a CD or a NEW book (never mind something wizzy, like a holiday) so that there's something there when the red bills come in; but you have a responsibility to yourself to keep (a) solvent and (b) sane, and a full-time job with attendant salary is going to help both these things. And if you're sane and solvent, you might find that there's less angst about the voluntary parish work. Does this sound patronising? I hope not. I just think that whatever you do, you're entitled to support. Don't beat yourself up; just give what you can.

And your parish priest sounds good stuff; has he an identical twin?

[sidvicius]

Over in Ireland then, it seems they have addressed this problem professionally. So:

(Q1) What is the English equivalent of the (Irish) National Secretariat of the Irish Episcopal Commission for Liturgy?
(Q2) Have the English equivalent published anything similar?

[Boadicea]

Apologies for bringing this topic up to the top again, but I just wanted to share something with you.

The other day I conducted the church choir at the funeral of the choirmaster's father. What strikes me as a little odd, is that the organist got paid, whilst I, as the one making all the decisions and taking the responsibility, didn't.

OK, so money isn't my motivation for being involved in liturgcial music - I do it because I love doing what I do, and because I feel it was what I was born to be doing. But I am a qualified musician, and any money I manage to earn (usually from playing at an occasional funeral) is always very welcome. Though I don't think it's not about the money - more about acknowledging our worth, or something like that.

Just seemed odd to me, somehow.

Hope you won't mind me having a bit of a moan to you!

[Merseysider]

We have a similar problem – a local organist plays for all those (hope you know what I mean) run-of-the-mill funerals (there are many) and is rather well paid for his trouble.

For funerals of active members of the parish I take over – regular organist is unable to attend a rehearsals for these events (and objects to the music used as it's beneath him) but still gets his fee (for not coming).

At two recent funerals, regular organist was paid his full rate for not being there. I had to get together a small choir, drum up musicians, write band parts etc.

But as Boadicea points out – it's all a tad odd. The person doing all the work either gets nothing or ends up out of pocket.

[Hare]

I can't really complain / comment - as an organist I am paid for playing at many funerals; any that take place in my own church (not many perhaps 4/5 a year) and elsewhere. (total so far this year: 62!) This is an important part of my self-employed income.

Could the reason for paying the organist be that for many years the organist was perceived as being "in charge" of the music? The term "Organist and Choirmaster" springs to mind, especially in Anglican and Free Church circles. It must also be born in mind that (this will probably provoke comment to say the least) the organist has to (or at least should) prepare and practice beforehand; not quite so much is always necessary to conduct a choir. I accept that band parts take a lot of work though. I've done it! Midnight oil and all that.

I must say that I take exception to the term "run-of-the -mill" funerals. I know what is meant here, but each and every one is important for the soul of the deceased and grieving relatives and friends. To take the "run-of-the -mill" attitude certainly makes one think of it as doing it only for the money!

[Merseysider]

Of course I meant no offence by my use of the word "run-of-the-mill". I meant those funerals for people with no parish connection who come (often many miles) solely for their funeral. We average around three of those a week – that's more than 150 a year.

My only gripe with the chap who plays for these – nice bloke and we usually get on well – is that he objects to playing the music from the parish repertoire which is used at funerals of parishoners. While I appreciate his need for an income, it seems a bit thick that he can get away with this. If I refused to do something in my day job I'd be out on my ear.

For a funeral coming up this week, I will lose half a day's pay and could well end up paying the visiting organist I've hired. A rather large parish funeral in December cost me three days' pay plus quite a bit of mileage, travelling around making arrangements. It's not only self-employed people who have to count the pennies.

[Tsume Tsuyu]

It must also be born in mind that (this will probably provoke comment to say the least) the organist has to (or at least should) prepare and practice beforehand; not quite so much is always necessary to conduct a choir

I'm afraid it's provoked me to comment, Hare, and I'm not an MD, I hasten to add! What about rehearsing the choir? And possibly planning the music with the family? This has already been debated at length on this thread and I agree with much of what Canonico said somewhere on the first page. He suggests that not everyone can or indeed ought to be paid for everything they do. I am a reader, a choir member and a catechist. I would not expect remuneration for any of these ministries. Although they all require some preparation time, I don't have to spend anything like the time an MD has to spend planning, writing arrangements, rehearsing the singers and instrumentalists. Nor do I have the responsibility that an MD has for ensuring it all comes together at Mass or other services. I'm not saying organists ought not be paid but I do feel that MDs ought to be. They are both positions that receive remuneration in our cathedrals, aren't they?

[Boadicea]

It must also be born in mind that (this will probably provoke comment to say the least) the organist has to (or at least should) prepare and practice beforehand; not quite so much is always necessary to conduct a choir.

Well, my comment is that this could only have been written by an organist - certainly not a conductor!

[Hare]

OK - let's just say that personally, my organ playing needs more preparation than my conducting!! No offence meant to anyone!

Perhaps I ought to stop speaking my mind - I'll give the forum a break for a while!

[Merseysider]

Don't do that, Hare. We need people to be honest and to share their experiences. And the printed word is not necessarily the right way to do this. If we were having this debate over a glass or two we would be able to share differences of opinion without being critical of each other – the missing eye-to-eye communication is crucial. And remember, no matter what grumbles we may have, we are all still doing what we feel called to do – if we were that fed up we wouldn't be doing it. Sometimes it's just good to let off steam with people who understand.

[Boadicea]

Yes, Merseysider's right - please don't do that, Hare.

He's also right about that glass or two - especially if it's of red wine!

Cheers!

[contrabordun]

is that he objects to playing the music from the parish repertoire which is used at funerals of parishoners... it seems a bit thick that he can get away with this

I think you're being far too polite. He's being outrageous. You take money for doing something, you do precisely what the payer wants. End of story. If you don't like what you're asked to do, you either hold your nose, bury your pride, and (if you have any spare limbs while in this uncomfortable posture), do as requested, or, move over and let somebody else do it - and don't have the impertinence to request a fee for not doing something you considered beneath you (while not being too proud to take the money).

Payment for services accompanied is one thing (not getting into organist vs DOM), but this guy sounds like he regards his customers as mere sources of income in exchange for nothing in particular.

[Dot]

My PP (ex-CofE) told me there are standard fees for musicians at CofE funerals and I think I know what two of the rates are: for organist, it's £50 (qualified or not), and as a member of the choir it's £25. I cannot believe that choristers might be paid that fee without the director of music being paid.

As far as what the service is worth - well, as a singer I feel it's very generous. As an unqualified organist, I would happily do it as a favour for someone I know. However, the work involved in looking up the pieces requested and obtaining the music (off the internet for free if possible!), learning and adapting for an instrument you're not confident to play, being asked to ad lib on arrival (eek), and the responsibility of being the only musician on duty all add up to a package which is well worth the fee.

Keyboard accompanists do put in more preparation behind the scenes than the other instrumentalists on the whole, but I do agree that it is wrong to pay the organist and not to pay the MD.

A note to Hare: if you get some sharp rebukes, you'll be in good company! Thank-you for taking the accompanist's point of view.

Dot

[sidvicius]

regular organist is unable to attend a rehearsals for these events (and objects to the music used as it's beneath him) but still gets his fee (for not coming).

Man, that really bites.

I could write more, but contrabordun's already said it, eloquently. I'm sure there's something biblical here too (somebody quote me c & v PLEASE!). What bugs me further, is that no-one in your parish seems bothered. Are they concerned that, were they too query him on this, he might walk out?

I say: call his bluff. Give the money to someone who actually cares about these important duties!

[docmattc]

I guess this thread is the appropriate place for this question. At choir practice last night we were discussing our fees for weddings and realised that we had no idea what other people charged. Our choir (about 20 people) charge £50 (collectively, not per person) for a wedding and employ a somewhat fluid sliding scale down from that if only a proportion of them can make the day. The money goes to a choir fund from which is our source of funding for new music.

I don't like asking about money really but it would be interesting to know what others do. Whilst discussing money it would be interesting too to find out what the 'going rate' for organists is. In our parish the organist gets £35 per wedding and £25 per funeral. I don't know who set this or when, I've certainly never had any input or been asked for any. I've read the Irish Bps guidelines which seem to be much higher than this, but I'm not in Ireland. Oxford RSCM have a list of rates too http://www.rscm-oxford.org.uk/salaryscales2004-5.htm which are a bit higher than ours. (£37/£31 for 'normal' weddings/funerals).

I'm looking for a rise, I have no musical qualifications and a full time job, but if we are going for a song (pun intended!) it might be worth bringing this to the attention of the powers that be.