Better and Worse Aspects of the Reform

[presbyter]

Would it be desirable to script a fixed prayer for every kind of circumstance one might need to take into account in the Prayer of the Faithful?

For anyone, anywhere, living or dead, in any need. Lord hear us...... Will that do?

[Southern Comfort]

To continue with the challenge, I have now managed to get two parishes singing it in strict tempo...and our City-wide Corpus Christi procession. Now for 'Hail Glorious St Patrick' and 'Sweet heart of Jesus'!

You forgot "Hail, Queen of heaven" !!!

[NorthernTenor]

Would it be desirable to script a fixed prayer for every kind of circumstance one might need to take into account in the Prayer of the Faithful?

For anyone, anywhere, living or dead, in any need. Lord hear us...... Will that do?

And we most humbly beseech thee of thy goodness, O Lord, to comfort and succour all them, who in this transitory life are in trouble, sorrow, need, sickness, or any other adversity.

And we also bless thy holy name for all thy servants departed this life in thy faith and fear ...

[nazard]

This thread is developing the most wonderful deviations. Is anyone playing the minute walz?

On the strict time sub thread, can I recommend also trying it with "God's spirit is in my heart" and "Nun danket." You'll get a good laugh out of both, and the end result, when you finally get there is an improvement.

Back to bidding prayers. The general prayer for all and sundry is there, at least for those with a bit of faith, in all four Eucharistic Prayers, covering the living and the dead. There is no prayer for the totally faithless, which is something the reformers could have put in. Do they think it isn't worth praying for the faithless?

The bidding prayers are, I believe, meant to cover specific issues. I vaguely remember some guidance about praying for the church, the pope and the bishops, which is not really necessary because they get prayed for elsewhere in the mass. I also have read that they were a part of mass in some previous period, which suggests that they have been dropped for some reason once before. I'm not the only person moaning about them, so they're obviously not totally satisfactory. Perhaps as they become a better established part of mass they will improve. Perhaps we should have a bidding prayer to improve bidding prayers?

I have heard the "Prayer for England", which is not fashionable these days, used as a bidding prayer. The Irish always used to say that prayer with feeling.

Biding prayers do seem to work best when the children do them. No adult would stand up and say "Please God, could you stop Aunty Nellie's bunion from hurting her?"

[nazard]

For those who don't know it, this is one version of the prayer for England:

O Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God and our most gentle Queen and Mother look down in mercy upon England thy Dowry and upon us all who greatly hope and trust in thee. By thee it was that Jesus our Saviour and our Hope was given unto the world and He has given thee to us that we might hope still more. Plead for us thy children whom thou did receive and accept at the foot of the cross O sorrowful Mother, intercede for our separated brethren that with us in the one true fold they may be united to the Chief Shepherd, the Vicar of Thy Son. Pray for us all, dear Mother, that by faith, fruitful in good works we may all deserve to see and praise God together with thee in our heavenly home.

[keitha]

SC said,

You forgot "Hail, Queen of heaven" !!!

. Yes - my mind wandered and clearly needs praying for! Again, we do it in strict tempo.

In relation to the topic, I would suggest that the concelebrated Mass is one of the better aspects of the Reform.

[Calum Cille]

Not worth the bother
The bidding prayers

Books are already being resorted to for the biddings. Would it be desirable to script a fixed prayer for every kind of circumstance one might need to take into account in the Prayer of the Faithful?

For anyone, anywhere, living or dead, in any need. Lord hear us...... Will that do?

The bidding prayers are, I believe, meant to cover specific issues.

I meant one fixed prayer for every single specific circumstance, not for all circumstances in general. If books of such prayers are already being produced, why not just go the whole hog and make official set prayers for this point in the liturgy? I know parishioners who get all of their bidding texts for mass out of the books already because they think their own talent can't compare to the quality in the books. Having official set prayers needn't mean that they were obligatory but, given that parishioners and priests are already relying on such material, it seems appropriate to have some official texts provided for them.

[nazard]

...I would suggest that the concelebrated Mass is one of the better aspects of the Reform.

Yes, it can work very well indeed. The conventual mass at Downside is always exemplary.

[nazard]

...it seems appropriate to have some official texts provided for them.

Perhaps the official texts should take the form of models which people are asked to adapt. A dozen or so models should cover most eventualities.

An example might go:

Let us pray for those involved in the conflict in... May a just settlement and a true reconciliation be swiftly made.

Pause for the congregation to make their private prayer

Lord hear us...

[Southern Comfort]

An example might go:

Let us pray for those involved in the conflict in... May a just settlement and a true reconciliation be swiftly made.

Pause for the congregation to make their private prayer

Lord hear us...

An even better way of doing this would be simply to have the first "Let us pray" part, omit the "May...." part, and allow a longer pause.

The whole point of the intercessions is that they are the General Intercessions [oratio universalis], the Prayer of the Faithful, not the Prayer of the Person reading the Intention or the Prayer of the Person who wrote the Intention. The "May..." clause puts someone else's thought into the people's mind, instead of allowing them to pray for the intention announced in their own way. We need to get away from this. In extreme cases, the "May..." or "that..." clause can be moralising, or over-pious, or just plain platitudinous.

The form of the intercessions is:

(a) Intro from the priest: Let us pray [addressed to the people, not to God]
(b) Announcement of Intention for prayer: Let us pray for / Let us pray that [and no more than that; addressed to the people, not to God or Jesus]
(c) Silent prayer of the people, during which they make the intention their own
(d) Repeat (b) and (c) as many times as required
(e) Concluding collect from the priest [addressed to God, not to the people]

One final point: during the pause, it is not the private prayer of the congregation. There is nothing private about what we do in liturgy. Liturgy is public and communal, so personal, yes, but not private. There is a difference.

[lesley wright]

It seems to me that there's never been sufficient teaching for people who 'compose' the Prayers of Intercession. I'm sure everyone who does this in our parish has the best of intentions, but most of them simply haven't a clue, and when there is a contribution from the two or three who actually do know what they should be doing, people feel cheated!

[Calum Cille]

My concern would be the same as Lesley's. In school, free prose writing was marked and some got much better marks than others. A lot depends on how the teacher sets a task. I can well imagine some people thinking they know what they're doing when they actually don't and, naturally enough, having had the responsibility for a while, resenting any further instruction on their labour.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal gives the following information which I have restructured chronologically.

It is for the priest celebrant to direct this prayer from the chair.
He himself begins it with a brief introduction, by which he invites the faithful to pray,

The intentions are announced from the ambo or from another suitable place, by the deacon or by a cantor, a lector, or one of the lay faithful.
petitions will be offered for
the holy Church,
for civil authorities,
for those weighed down by various needs,
for all men and women,
and for the salvation of the whole world.
The intentions announced should be
sober,
be composed freely but prudently,
and be succinct,
and they should express the prayer of the entire community.

The people, however, stand and give expression to their prayer either
by an invocation said together after each intention
or by praying in silence.

and likewise he concludes it with a prayer.

I note the singular "prayer" and the sense that the "praying in silence" is given as an alternative to "an invocation said together."

[presbyter]

The intentions announced should be
sober,
be composed freely but prudently,
and be succinct,
and they should express the prayer of the entire community.

Such as:

Let us pray for those who are sick of this parish........

(A Golden Oldie that one )

[presbyter]

Speaking of the POTF - does anyone know if in the "new" Missal there will be examples, as in the present Missal's appendices?

[Southern Comfort]

Speaking of the POTF - does anyone know if in the "new" Missal there will be examples, as in the present Missal's appendices?

Yes. Appendix V contains "Examples of Formularies for the Universal Prayer" —

General Formula I, General Formula II, Advent, Christmas Time [sic], Lent I, Lent II, Weekdays of Holy Week, Easter Time [sic again], Ordinary Time I, Ordinary Time II, In Masses for the Dead

[Christmastide and Eastertide clearly do not figure on Vox Clara's radar]