Calum Cille wrote:I find it entirely appropriate that the feature of recurrence of an important verbal (and thus conceptual) theme at opposite ends of the mass be served by some kind of musically thematic connection.
Even though the texts have very different functions?
Cultic - to my mind - is associated with systems of religious veneration, devotion, worship directed towards a specific person - in our case, Almighty God. The whole Mass and all its songs are cultic in that sense. Are you confusing ritual form and function with the more blanket term cult ?
OK - we seem to be heading towards your definition of terms. So what do you call a liturgical song that stands alone? (i.e. the song itself is the liturgical action)
Well OK - but let us imagine that you are asked to compose an Agnus Dei for celebrations in Latin, both in the Ordinary Form of Mass (JP II Missal 2002) and in the Extraordinary Form (1962 Missal). Remember that the 1962 Missal is subject to the instruction De musica sacra et sacra liturgia of 1958 - the people should have a sung part in all or some of the Agnus Dei. How would you approach such a composition given that:
1. In the 2002 Missal, the Agnus Dei is a cultic (your term) song.
2. In the 1962 Missal, it is not a cultic song (does not accompany a ritual action).............?
Your logic, so far, would seem to indicate we need two different stylistic approaches to the same text.
Last edited by presbyter on Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
presbyter wrote:Well OK - but let us imagine that you are asked to compose an Agnus Dei for celebrations in Latin
Unlikely but...
1) I wouldn't compose for the Latin text as there's so much wonderful music assembly music already available. 2) I couldn't compose for the 1962 Missal as I don't understand the purpose of the text in this context and, therefore, wouldn't know how to even begin. I presume that, in this context it would be OK to just knock out something pretty for the choir!
Nick Baty wrote:I couldn't compose for the 1962 Missal as I don't understand the purpose of the text in this context and, therefore, wouldn't know how to even begin.
OK - well that's an honest answer. So what difference - to your mind - is there in singing a simple plainsong Latin Agnus (see the new ICEL chants where simple Latin settings run parallel with English settings) in an otherwise English celebration of the Ordinary Form (and don't please say you wouldn't do this because that is ducking the question) and singing the same simple plainsong setting in the Extraordinary Form? What is the over-arching purpose of the text (matters of accompanying a ritual action or not aside)?
presbyter wrote:So what difference - to your mind - is there in singing a simple plainsong Latin Agnus in an otherwise English celebration of the Ordinary Form (and don't please say you wouldn't do this because that is ducking the question)
Well I probably wouldn't.
presbyter wrote: and singing the same simple plainsong setting in the Extraordinary Form? What is the over-arching purpose of the text (matters of accompanying a ritual action or not aside)?
I had always believed the Agnus had a specific functionality in the EF but, according to your explanation above,it doesn't.
presbyter wrote:Not at all. Read my reference to the 1958 document above.
So you're saying that in the 1962 Missal, the text should be sung by all (said also by Pius X in 1903) but there is otherwise no purpose to it?
I should stress that this is a totally academic argument as I am unlikely to be providing music for a 1962 Mass – I don't understand the function of music in this rite and therefore would have to stand aside for one who did.
Last edited by Nick Baty on Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
