O Come, O Come Emmanuel

mcb · Post by **mcb** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:17 am

Hmm, steady, guys. Let's agree that quasi-political labelling of each other's point of view doesn't get us anywhere. But I'm with Nick as far as the original point is concerned: I will sing to the Lord, Glorious his triumph; horse and rider he has thrown into the sea is approximately the same sentiment as the Sun's "Gothcha!", isn't it? Shouldn't Christians feel just a pang of unease at the idea of celebrating slaughter, no matter how providential and liberating?

M.

VML · Post by **VML** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:41 am

I've actually referred to it as the 'Gotcha! song,' at practices over the years.

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:50 am

mcb wrote:Shouldn't Christians feel just a pang of unease at the idea of celebrating slaughter, no matter how providential and liberating?

No one has mentioned the final plague yet - even more horrific than the drowning of the army?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... on_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_coun ... te_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... te_en.html

a few links to browse through, should you have the time.

dunstan · Post by **dunstan** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:29 pm

Who should now apologise to the Egyptian government for drowning Pharoah's army? Would it be the Vatican, or the state of Israel? Or will it be all due to British Imperialism, and fall to Mr Blair?

gwyn · Post by **gwyn** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:17 pm

Maybe a little study of the Old Testament wouldn't go amiss hereabouts.

mcb · Post by **mcb** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:32 pm

...or possibly the sermon on the mount.

M.

contrabordun · Post by **contrabordun** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:39 pm

mcb wrote:Hmm, steady, guys. Let's agree that quasi-political labelling of each other's point of view doesn't get us anywhere. But I'm with Nick as far as the original point is concerned:

Me too, actually. But also with mcb on the above.

presbyter · Post by **presbyter** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:48 pm

from "Wiki" - the O antiphons are another medieval acrostic - I didn't know that!

December 17: O Sapientia (Wisdom)
December 18: O Adonai (Lord)
December 19: O Radix (Root of Jesse)
December 20: O Clavis (Key of David)
December 21: O Oriens (Dawn)
December 22: O Rex (King)
December 23: O Emmanuel (God with us)
If you take the first letter of each word; Emmanuel, Rex, Oriens, Clavis, Radix, Adonai and Sapientia; you get a Latin phrase, "ERO CRAS", or, "I will be, tomorrow.

sidvicius · Post by **sidvicius** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:33 pm

anne wrote:...the Jewish people.

Nah, I tend to take it as a more generic "people of God", or anyone in a fix who turns to the one true God for help. Should we sing it? I don't have a problem with the words, and I like the verse melody. It's the dismal "Rejoice" which gets me - always sounds like someone singing it either (1) on the point of tears, i.e. in desperation and/or (2) not truly certain that "Emmanuel shall come to thee"!

I get the impression that Anne's query is "is it singing of Jesus as the Messiah, when (if the song is deeply rooted in Judaism) it refers to a Messiah who has not yet arrived!" However, as Gwyn notes, its Old Testament refs (Root of Jesse etc) seem to provide a pretty good genealogy of whom it are referring.

gwyn · Post by **gwyn** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:43 pm

Presbyter wrote:

"ERO CRAS", or, "I will be, tomorrow.

Fascinating.

musicus · Post by **musicus** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:34 am

Slightly OT - I'll moderate myself later - but if you don't already know the piece, try hear James MacMillan's Veni, Veni Emmanuel - a wonderful concerto for percussion and orchestra, based on the chant melody. Even if you don't like 20th century music, it's marvelous, especially the long, slow middle section, which is an extended treatment of the 'Rejoice, rejoice' bit. There's a really good Naxos recording; Â£5.99 well-spent.

TimSharrock · Post by **TimSharrock** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:25 am

musicus wrote:try hear James MacMillan's Veni, Veni Emmanuel - a wonderful concerto for percussion and orchestra...

wonderful indeed - I wonder where the cd is

Unfortunately I don't think we could quite manage it with bongos, tambourines and frog, a week on Sunday.

asb · Post by **asb** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:57 am

I have a huge problem with "Light the Advent candle one / two /three / four" which the CL group have twisted my PP's arm into doing this year against my advice. Look at the words - what are they teaching kids about Advent?

Off the top of my head it's 366 in CFE

Give me "O come, O come" any day! (as long as it's after the 17th! Sorry Paul!)

gwyn · Post by **gwyn** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:28 am

ASB wrote:

I have a huge problem with "Light the Advent candle one / two / three / four"

Me too

what are they teaching kids about Advent?

Nothing. Absoluteligh nothing.

musicus · Post by **musicus** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:52 pm

You're right - it's utter tosh.

Ask the CL group to justify their choice.

Society of Saint Gregory

O Come, O Come Emmanuel

O come Emmanuel