nazard wrote:The idea of having music at every mass which the council recommended has gone about as well as any major project without a plan, a responsible manager and a budget ever goes. In short, it has been a complete disaster..
While that may be true in England, it is not the case elsewhere. In the USA it is rare to find a Mass without at least some music. This has been achieved by investing in people: hiring them, paying them and paying for formation. This in turn has been achieved by the fact that Americans give far more generously to the collection than we do. In Germany the same result has been achieved by means of the [I]Kirchensteuer[\i], the church tax which most people pay to the government which passes it on to the Churches who can then pay their musicians decent salaries. In Norway, Sweden, Finland... church musicians are paid a living wage too.
If you want something enough, you need to do something to get it. We just sit on our backsides and moan, alas.
Interesting exercise - I tried making a list of 20 based on what we actually have, not what I'd like us to have. There's one for every season (so Christmas and Easter are there), and only one day that I don't think we have anything for.
Actually, this cheered me up a bit. With even minimal musical accompaniment, we can actually far more than just this. Even though it feels at times that our repertoire is woefully limited.
Advent O Come O Come Emmanuel Christmas O Come all ye Faithful Lent God of Mercy and Compassion Palm Sunday Hail Redeemer King Divine Easter Alleluia Alleluia Give Thanks Celtic Alleluia Pentecost Walk in the Light Trinity Father we Adore You Corpus Christi I am the Bread of Life Ascension ???? Assumption Hail Queen of Heaven St Patrick Hail Glorious St Patrick Entrance City of God Christ be Beside Me Offertory Take our Bread In Bread we Bring You Lord Communion In Love for You - Owens/Lundy Let us Be Bread Recessional Christ be our Light Seek Ye First - Lafferty
If I could go a little over 20, the next category would be Mary: When Creation was Begun, As I Kneel Before You, Our Lady of Knock.
Last Sunday the Mass I attended, they sang four hymns to Mary - a Mary fest - including Hail Queen of Heaven during the Offertory and many people did not join in. I was a bit astonished. They did sing the Acclamations though, with gusto.
When I was around 8 years old our teacher, a church musician of many talents, asked us to choose a hymn for him to play for us on his tuba. I think it was a tuba. I choose "God of Mercy and Compassion". He was astonished and said it was a grim, miserable hymn. I have not heard it sung since. But I do still like that one. although "Never shall I sin again" is a bit a a tall order.
The hymns were - I'll sing a hymn to Mary (updated version in Laudate) Hail Queen of Heaven ( thrown on life surge ? ) that version of the Magnificat (Will you go lassy, go) Sing of Mary Pure and Lowly.
And I was a bit surprised. Someone somewhere was choosing their favourite hymns.
Laudate, if I remember correctly, has the Magnificat in it's Marian section, when it's actually a hymn to God which is ascribed to Mary by Luke...
I do tend to use it for Communion on Marian feastdays.
A thought on hymns to Mary at Mass. I remember that Pope Francis had the Salve Regina (of which Hail Queen of Heaven is a paraphrase) after his inauguration Mass. Personally, I have them on Marian Feastdays at for Gathering and the Final hymn, never for Offertory or Communion. There's another issue as to whether hymns to Mary should be sung at the end of Sunday Masses in May and October and I wish our bishops would rule on this. May, in particular, is often in Eastertide with Feasts like Ascension, Pentecost and Trinity which should, IMHO, take priority.
A question with Oop's 20 hymns is that the parish would probably have different hymns to the school - so that would make 40. 'If I were a butterfly' was a top hit at the school till it was banned by the then PP. Other current favourites at the school include 'Come and go with me' and that one about the trees of the hills clapping their hands. Oh, and the one about dancing as David danced.
I agree with JW re the liturgical priorities he lists. However, I would prefer it if the bishops did not make a ruling. (And if they did, would it make any difference? I'm thinking of something on that other thread Liturgical Tourism). There is a place for Marian hymns once in a while - but more particularly at e.g. Vespers (sorry, Evening Prayer). But how many do sung EP now? We used to for feasts - but it seems to have fallen off the plan these days. Autres temps, autres moeurs I suppose.
oopsorganist wrote:The hymns were - I'll sing a hymn to Mary (updated version in Laudate) Hail Queen of Heaven ( thrown on life surge ? ) that version of the Magnificat (Will you go lassy, go) Sing of Mary Pure and Lowly.
And I was a bit surprised. Someone somewhere was choosing their favourite hymns.
Er - Sunday 14th August WAS a "Mary Fest" so what's the problem?
blackthorn fairy wrote:I agree with JW re the liturgical priorities he lists. However, I would prefer it if the bishops did not make a ruling. (And if they did, would it make any difference? I'm thinking of something on that other thread Liturgical Tourism). There is a place for Marian hymns once in a while - but more particularly at e.g. Vespers (sorry, Evening Prayer). But how many do sung EP now? We used to for feasts - but it seems to have fallen off the plan these days. Autres temps, autres moeurs I suppose.
When I was taught liturgy in the seminary decades ago, we were told that the Mass is uniquely adressed to the Father, through Christ our Lord the great high priest. From start to end, that is. Hymns and prayers to Mary and the saints have their place in the Office and at novenas etc. Has something changed?
blackthorn fairy wrote:I agree with JW re the liturgical priorities he lists. However, I would prefer it if the bishops did not make a ruling. (And if they did, would it make any difference? I'm thinking of something on that other thread Liturgical Tourism). There is a place for Marian hymns once in a while - but more particularly at e.g. Vespers (sorry, Evening Prayer). But how many do sung EP now? We used to for feasts - but it seems to have fallen off the plan these days. Autres temps, autres moeurs I suppose.
When I was taught liturgy in the seminary decades ago, we were told that the Mass is uniquely adressed to the Father, through Christ our Lord the great high priest. From start to end, that is. Hymns and prayers to Mary and the saints have their place in the Office and at novenas etc. Has something changed?
Are we still talking specifically about The Assumption? If so, and hymns are used in place of the Antiphons, which as part of the Propers are relevant to the theme of the day, what is wrong with Marian hymns at mass?
blackthorn fairy wrote:I agree with JW re the liturgical priorities he lists. However, I would prefer it if the bishops did not make a ruling. (And if they did, would it make any difference? I'm thinking of something on that other thread Liturgical Tourism). There is a place for Marian hymns once in a while - but more particularly at e.g. Vespers (sorry, Evening Prayer). But how many do sung EP now? We used to for feasts - but it seems to have fallen off the plan these days. Autres temps, autres moeurs I suppose.
When I was taught liturgy in the seminary decades ago, we were told that the Mass is uniquely adressed to the Father, through Christ our Lord the great high priest. From start to end, that is. Hymns and prayers to Mary and the saints have their place in the Office and at novenas etc. Has something changed?
Are we still talking specifically about The Assumption? If so, and hymns are used in place of the Antiphons, which as part of the Propers are relevant to the theme of the day, what is wrong with Marian hymns at mass?
Who are the proper antiphons adressed to? Are they petitioning Mary? I was thinking especially of Pentecost this year where the Mass ended with a Marian hymn. I will own up to actually being shocked that the Holy Spirit had been displaced.
