Multi culturalism

[oopsorganist]

As described by Thomas - I mean, his perceptive expansion of the term "multi-cultural".

[contrabordun]

It is a lost skill

No. Really, it isn't.

and something most people that I encounter cannot do now. Sadly

I'm sure that it is true that they do not, and would think it highly likely that they do not see any need to. But given that it is possible to get a class of 8 year olds singing simple rounds within a very few minutes I think it is stretching it to say that they cannot.
It is purely a question of priorities; usually those of the PP.

[alan29]

It is a lost skill

No. Really, it isn't.

and something most people that I encounter cannot do now. Sadly

I'm sure that it is true that they do not, and would think it highly likely that they do not see any need to. But given that it is possible to get a class of 8 year olds singing simple rounds within a very few minutes I think it is stretching it to say that they cannot.
It is purely a question of priorities; usually those of the PP.

Our congregation sang "Father we adore you" as a round on Trinity Sunday. Very well too.

[Southern Comfort]

To go back to my point, I thought that chant and polyphony were now being put forward as the model and exemplar of music for the liturgy. If that isn't a mono-culture, I don't know what is.

I believe that chant and polyphony have been put forward as the model and exemplar for some hundreds of years now. I think that the present push for them is a reminder to us all that this remains the case. In our parish this is important, since our pp bans chant and polyphony on his own personal authority, which no doubt derives from the deeper magic from before the dawn of time, or something like that.

Chant and polyphony have really only been on the map since the neo-antiquarian revival in the middle of the 1800s.... Up to that time, church music kept pace with what was going on in the secular music world.

[musicus]

Up to that time, church music kept pace with what was going on in the secular music world.

Very true, and almost entirely forgotten now - even by musicians, who should know better. JS Bach is perhaps one of the best examples (though even he was considered rather old-fashioned by some of the hip Leipzig set).

[Southern Comfort]

I googled Victorian hymns and found this on Jesus4u.co.uk <snip>

Early in the 19th Century attempts were made by Church of England clergymen to introduce hymn singing in order to improve singing in services, notably F.W. Faber, William How, Frederick Oakley and John Ellerton, all hymn writers.

Well, although Fr Faber started off life (so to speak) as an Anglican clergyman, he converted and became a Catholic priest. All his most famous hymns were written after his ordination as a Catholic priest, and many of them date from his time at the London Oratory.

[alan29]

To go back to my point, I thought that chant and polyphony were now being put forward as the model and exemplar of music for the liturgy. If that isn't a mono-culture, I don't know what is.

I believe that chant and polyphony have been put forward as the model and exemplar for some hundreds of years now. I think that the present push for them is a reminder to us all that this remains the case. In our parish this is important, since our pp bans chant and polyphony on his own personal authority, which no doubt derives from the deeper magic from before the dawn of time, or something like that.

Chant and polyphony have really only been on the map since the neo-antiquarian revival in the middle of the 1800s.... Up to that time, church music kept pace with what was going on in the secular music world.

And beyond. There are plenty of tunes in the Westminster hymnal that wouldn't have been out of place on the stage of a Victorian music hall - "Sweet Saviour bless us, ere we go" springs immediately to mind.

[JW]

If we go back to before the Renaissance, the Church had all the best music and musicians. Rather than keeping up with secular music I would suggest that it was setting the standards. Secular music was but a pale imitation of church music.

I suspect that the Church has never quite got used to the fact that, from about 1650, secular music began to catch up, and then surpass Church music. By the classical period, secular musicians declared independence from the church, most notably Mozart and Beethoven. Composers needed to make a living and secular music began to give them better rewards than writing church music.

By 1850 we had a Church that was becoming afraid of the modern world and everything to do with it.

Those in Rome have never really accepted their loss of control over the secular, hence the mistaken desire always to hark back to what is considered to be a golden age of church music. Unfortunately, this type of music is not loved by everyone and inhibits some people's prayer when used in their worship.

Sacrosanctum Consilium seemed to have begun to redress the balance by encouraging music from worldwide cultures while insisting on the primacy of chant and polyphony. As far as multiculturalism is concerned, the gospels instruct us to be in the world, but not part of it. Many in the church adopted this thinking with enthusiasm. However, the current powers-that-be seem to be returning to a siege mentality.

It remains to be seen whether the Church will continue to lose respect and influence as it puts up more and more barriers against people, or whether it continues to push open the doors left ajar by Vatican 2. In the long term all will be well, but how long is the long term?

[contrabordun]

Sweet Saviour bless us, ere we go" springs immediately to mind.

I do so wish it wouldn't

[oopsorganist]

Ah no
Sweet Saviour bless us ere we go
Sweet saviour bless us earwig O.......................
Earwig O earwig O earwig O
Earwig O earwig O earwig O
etc.
World cup for bugs 2012

[organist]

Panel of Monastic musicians magazine has interesting quotes from chantcafe site about the problem. I don't see how polyphony can promote fully active congregational participation. Listening well yes! I think the lack of training and support especially financial for musicians over so many years is now going to kick back at the church trying to impose these changes from above. Why should we give up much loved settings we have used for years? Ironically I know of one parish whose longstanding Latin chant choir is in peril because nobody wants to pay a successor to the organist. Also you have Catholic musicians taking refuge in the Anglican church and actually it's not all about pay. It's where you feel welcomed and loved that matters!

[gwyn]

. . . Also you have Catholic musicians taking refuge in the Anglican church . . .

And sadly vice versa.

[dmu3tem]

Could we get back to the original issue - multiculturalism?

I think the essence of the issue depends on a recognition that there are many different sorts of culture, each - hopefully -meeting the needs of different segments within a very diverse population. From this perspective then no one 'culture' can in itself be regarded as 'superior' to another. A person who identifies with one particular culture naturally assumes that his/her culture is 'the best'; meaning that is the one with which he or she is most at home; but someone else might think quite differently. So really the issue is one of 'mix and match'. Is the music on offer in any given church/parish/establishment resonating with the cultural/spiritual/religious 'ambiance' of the people attending/participating in the service?

Now, as some of the previous messages show, there is some evidence to show that the Catholic Church - or particular groups within it - tries to argue that certain musical cultures are 'better' attuned to its liturgy, theology and values. The most common exemplars of this are protagonists for plainchant or Renaissance Polyphony, but I also note that in some messages similar claims appear to be being made for other more modern styles. When arguments of this sort are put forward, they are in effect claiming that multiculturalism in the 'neutral' sense described above should be overidden. This is the natural result of a church with strong centralising instincts allying with members on the ground who like to feel they 'belong' to one common organisation all doing more or less the same thing. Against this is the argument that a liturgy, its music and other cultural aspects that pervade it - are useless if they are not attuned to the needs of local people on the ground in a given situation/building.

Ultimately then, you have a straight choice. Either you give primacy to local needs - in which case you will end up with a full blown multicultural scene; or you temper that by acknowledging the claims of some higher centralising authorities (not just senior ecclesiastics in the Vatican but also self-appointed musical or liturgical 'experts' and pressure groups). These 'authorities' are supposed to have greater expertise, and therefore regard themselves as the guardians of religious values; and they use their position to 'recommend' some musico-religious cultures at the expense of others, thereby limiting the scope for multiculturalism.

[Peter Jones]

The most common exemplars of this are protagonists for plainchant or Renaissance Polyphony.........

A pretty blinkered view of polyphony, in my opinion. I don't see the word Renaissance in the Church documents and Musicam Sacram, for example, states this:sacred polyphony in its various forms both ancient and modern,

And whose polyphony do these protagonists want? Roman, Flemish, English, Spanish, etc.......?

Would they want these fine examples of inculturation? (Do buy and listen )

http://www.excathedra.co.uk/rec_moon_sun_and_all_things.php?submenuheader=2

By the way - whatever happened to inculturation?

[alan29]

The most common exemplars of this are protagonists for plainchant or Renaissance Polyphony.........

A pretty blinkered view of polyphony, in my opinion. I don't see the word Renaissance in the Church documents and Musicam Sacram, for example, states this:sacred polyphony in its various forms both ancient and modern,

And whose polyphony do these protagonists want? Roman, Flemish, English, Spanish, etc.......?

Would they want these fine examples of inculturation? (Do buy and listen )

http://www.excathedra.co.uk/rec_moon_sun_and_all_things.php?submenuheader=2

By the way - whatever happened to inculturation?

It is well worthwhile to do a search in Youtube under something like ethnic polyphony. More than one way to skin a cat.