Passive non-participation

[presbyter]

Also, at a Mass at St Chad's last year, the children (junior school age) sang 'O bread of heaven beneath this veil, thou dost thy very God conceal'. To me it seems strange that they are being taught this, while their parents and grandparents are singing in contemporary English.

Would you find it strange if the children at a Mass with the celebration the sacrament of Confirmation sang 'Come Holy Ghost, Creator, come' (or, come to that, Veni Creator in Latin) with the unfortunately ubiquitous 'Walk in the light' elsewhere in the celebration? (Birmingham - age for confirmation is top two years of primary school - 9 to 11 years old)

[NorthernTenor]

I didn't feel that the content and phrasing of the first post were conducive to reasoned, good-humoured discussion, so didn't join in. I'm afraid the second hasn't encouraged me to change my mind, other than to explain why.

Mea culpa NT. I admit that I have not really thought this out properly. Sorry.

JQ

And I'm sorry, JQ, if my post gave the impression of a lecture, delivered while gazing sternly over half-moon spectacles *. I think there is an interesting discussion to be had about the nature of sacral langauage and its use in liturgy, but previous experience suggests it's too sensitive a topic for this comment board.

* no offence intended, Nick.

[johnquinn39]

Also, at a Mass at St Chad's last year, the children (junior school age) sang 'O bread of heaven beneath this veil, thou dost thy very God conceal'. To me it seems strange that they are being taught this, while their parents and grandparents are singing in contemporary English.

Would you find it strange if the children at a Mass with the celebration the sacrament of Confirmation sang 'Come Holy Ghost, Creator, come' (or, come to that, Veni Creator in Latin) with the unfortunately ubiquitous 'Walk in the light' elsewhere in the celebration? (Birmingham - age for confirmation is top two years of primary school - 9 to 11 years old)

Not at all, Presbyter. I think that the point I am trying to make is that there is, in my view more scripture in the Taize 'Eat this bread' or James Quinn's 'Take and eat' for example than in 'O bread of heaven'.

Come Holy Ghost/Veni Creator is a classic hymn. I'm not sure if 'O bread of heaven' is.

As for 'Walk in the light' - I think that maybe it is time to move on from this.

[nazard]

My children and their friends (and enemies) always sang "O Bread of heaven" and "Come Holy Ghost" quite happily, whereas they thought "Walk in the light" was utterly cringeworthy. Now they are older they rationalise it like this:

Nothing sung in church resembles contemporary pop music (eg Kasabian). Much of what is presented as "modern" music is based on the pop music of the 1950s, eg Matt Munro. In pop terms it is therefore Granny music.

If it isn't pop then it has to stand on its merits, and most catholic recent music hasn't got any. Most , but not all, older tunes which have survived are at least good tunes, if not exactly cool, so they are tolerable.

They did like "Oh the word of my Lord" and "Follow me, follow me," and they loved for quite the wrong reasons anything they could twist the words of to something totally repulsive, but children are such little darlings...

[docmattc]

I think there is an interesting discussion to be had about the nature of sacral langauage and its use in liturgy, but previous experience suggests it's too sensitive a topic for this comment board.

There is a very interesting discussion to be had and it is certainly worth having it. Blunt axes can be ground elsewhere though. For my part I'll say that I think there is nothing wrong with using language which differs from everyday in liturgy, whether that be poetic texts, 'archaic language' or Latin, but with the proviso that it isn't so beyond the grasp of the congregation that they are left entirely as spectators throughout the whole liturgy.

[NorthernTenor]

There is a very interesting discussion to be had and it is certainly worth having it. Blunt axes can be ground elsewhere though. For my part I'll say that I think there is nothing wrong with using language which differs from everyday in liturgy, whether that be poetic texts, 'archaic language' or Latin, but with the proviso that it isn't so beyond the grasp of the congregation that they are left entirely as spectators throughout the whole liturgy.

For my own part, I would find it interesting to go beyond slogans about "today's language" or fear of "sounding Anglican" to ask what it is about sacral English that can make it, at its best, so resonant and moving, and the extent to which it shares this with other sacral forms of language, e.g. the form of Latin employed by the western Church which was, I am led to understand, archaic by the time of its adoption; or Church Slavonic.

Not that I'd dream of commenting on this thread, mind

[Nick Baty]

Come Holy Ghost/Veni Creator is a classic hymn. I'm not sure if 'O bread of heaven' is.

I'm sure many of us would agree with you but sometimes we just need a bloody good sing – yes, I know, the worst reason possible for choosing a particular item – and O Bread of Heaven gives us that. (We'll be using it on 9th August, almost straight after Taizé's Eat this bread.) It's one of the many items I'd love at my funeral but, sadly, I won't be around to make such decisions.

Having said that, doesn't this debate about which hymns are more/less suitable bring us back to an earlier argument that, in general, strophic hymns are not really suitable for our liturgy.

[Nick Baty]

If it isn't pop then it has to stand on its merits, and most catholic recent music hasn't got any.

I suspect many of us on here would debate that with you until kingdom come. The youngsters in our parish belt out most contemporary stuff but really aren't very interested in the kitsch from the 1970s. (Yes, I'm sure there was some good stuff produced then but it didn't become too popular.)

Our ancestors sang quite a few pop tunes in church, including Mozart's Se vuol ballare from the Marriage of Figaro which stood for an early version of O Purest of creatures. Pope Pius X banned such tunes (as had the Council of Trent) for their theatrical associations.

Most , but not all, older tunes which have survived are at least good tunes, if not exactly cool, so they are tolerable.

In his preface to the 1912 Westminster Hymnal, Sir Richard Terry said he had included some “bad” tunes because they were “bound up with the pious associations of so many holy lives”.

Anyway, he composed alternative tunes so the yukky ones need not be used by “those to whom they are distasteful.” Among those “bad” tunes which Terry tried to replace was Faith of Our Fathers. Yet it is this “distasteful” tune which has survived.

Of the 46 tunes by Terry which appear in the 1912 edition, just seven were retained in the later edition by his former pupil Gregory Murray. Just like Terry before him, Murray tried to replace well-loved melodies with his own. Many deliciously squelchy tunes from Hemy’s Crown of Jesus were relegated to the appendix.

And again, it’s Murray’s melodies which are forgotten while some of those – IMHO – deliciously syrupy crappy but easily-singable tunes have survived into present collections.

I’m sure it’s not coincidence that Stephen Dean’s Water of Life sounds like Hail Queen of Heaven from Crown of Jesus. And think how singable and well-loved are Bernadette Farrell’s Unless a Grain of Wheat and Christ be our light.

And I know exactly why our parishioners love Christopher Walker's Teach Me, O Lord - it's because they can make it sound like the final song of the night, after a few gins in a Scottie Road pub.

You can’t stop folk voting with their voices.

[musicus]

There's also this: http://www.users.on.net/~algernon/aveverum/translation.html

The comment on unda here seems to me to be misleading. Unda means wave - a gushing forth of water (understood) and blood. The word unde means 'whence' and the author might have confused these two words. My Latin (in a rusty state and presently hardly elevated above the level of the Shorter Eating Primer) is not brilliant and I am open to correction if I am in error here - Magister Ursus?

'Wave' and 'water' are the root meanings of unda, I believe; 'stream' or 'gush' are more figurative (but quite appropriate here). I would think that that "cujus latus perforatum fluxit aqua et sanguine" was the original text. It is certainly the most straightforward. Unde (from where, whence) is a confused red herring, as presbyter points out.

[johnquinn39]

johnquinn39 wrote:
There is a lot of talk at the moment about teaching people (the young in particular) Latin, and using archaic and non-inclusive language.

Is there? Where's this then? Which particularly biased journalist might you have been reading? Name your sources and produce appropriate statistics to lend weight to your proposition. Is this happening in your parish, for example? If so, might there be a parallel lobby for occasional celebration in the Goidelic language of Hibernia?

Mea culpa, Presbyter. My sources are non-authorititive and have no statistics or weight - I have just gathered this from right-wing Catholic blogs.

Sorry

JQ

[NorthernTenor]

I have just gathered this from right-wing Catholic blogs.

I guess at this point the audience is meant to hiss and shout behind you!, just as they do at the pantomime when the wicked Vizier appears on stage, or on conservative catholic comment boards when the SoSG is mentioned.

[Nick Baty]

Sorry to disagree, Presbyter, but I'm with John on this. There is most certainly a growing movement which believes the only forward is Latin, Chant and the Gregorian Rite. I'm not talking about a preference for these things – which, I'm sure, many on here share – but a demand that this is the only acceptable way forward. And, yes, many of them are frighteningly right wing. I can think of one where people are openly and unashamedly Thatcherite. If I was fortunate enough to have children, I certainly wouldn't let any of these people babysit!

[NorthernTenor]

Sorry to disagree, Presbyter, but I'm with John on this. There is most certainly a growing movement which believes the only forward is Latin, Chant and the Gregorian Rite. I'm not talking about a preference for these things – which, I'm sure, many on here share – but a demand that this is the only acceptable way forward. And, yes, many of them are frighteningly right wing. I can think of one where people are openly and unashamedly Thatcherite. If I was fortunate enough to have children, I certainly wouldn't let any of these people babysit!

*** prejudiced generalisation alert ***

[Nick Baty]

I have PM'd you.

[contrabordun]

I think he means DT (of the DT).
Most of whose posters are also apparently suffering from the DTs.

I'm unashamedly Thatcherite. I don't think views on politics and economics have any relevance to those on liturgy.