Participation

[Peter]

On another thread...

This is off topic.. send for the Moderator(s).

I have misgivings about the whole, participation for children is doing the readings, which our primary school and others seem to think is the way to go. It puts a lot of pressure on children, sometimes very little children and is a bit annoying if you then struggle to hear them. Is it cute? No. It is awkward on all occasions when I have seen it done. (Which is quite a few).
Bonkersly and inspite of all above discussions around the issues (trying to stay on topic Modoc) I now have pressure from some quarters to try somehow to round up all the Confirmees and engage them in wanting to help with the singing. There can be no surer sign of a lack of general organisation in a parish for anyone to suggest this is the next step for young people's energies. (I would not mind if they volunteered). I quite often get accused of having "let them get away"!

And loudly off topic, smacked hand, at the end of Sunday Mass the catechists, all four of them, were given flowers! For turning up for 14 sessions! It just made me laugh.
Anway I don't feel like such a bad fairy for questioning the relapse into favourite hymn singing. We did sing the Alleluia (Seek ye first) and all other important bits. And well too. People just don't know that if they slid into a weekly favourite hymn singing session interspersed with Mass bits, they would get tired and stop coming. I know if I put on a hymn singing hour with all yer favourites, no one would come. I am learning to smile and do what needs to be done, but cor dear, it's so hard pleasing everyone

That may have been OT on the thread it was on but it's still worth saying. While involvement with music is an excellent way to keep young people involved in the Church it has to be something they want to do. Pressurising them to sing when they don't want to (especially if they can't) is more likely to be counterproductive. And getting them to read before they are ready to is also fraught with difficulties.

When to thank people, whom to thank and how is another can of worms but well worth discussion and I hope also covered under the general heading of Participation. What happens at other people's parishes? Are the right people thanked or are deserving cases overlooked?

[oopsorganist]

Oh dear
I have just fallen out with my right hand guitarist, over getting youngsters to sing.
We have had the kind offer of a good musician/techician, to record people singing and my friend thinks this is brilliant and is raring to go......................
I just see all the pitfalls and have this gut feeling that those who do not volunteer should not be coerced or bribed into making music for the Mass.
If they want to help out, that is great. If they want to but for whatever reason cannot make it to practice, this reduces the repertoire but is still fine with me.
But I just can't see the point in trying to gather a choir for a not very good reason of making a CD which could run us into copyright problems. This might not be how to spell copywrite.
After a year of practice a good choir might consider recording, but we don' t have a choir.
I would like a choir. I would probably like someone to lead it too.
But I just have who I have and I have to work around that.
So I have just lost one significant member. Better get praying for something to happen.

[musicus]

But I just can't see the point in trying to gather a choir for a not very good reason of making a CD which could run us into copyright problems. This might not be how to spell copywrite.

Your rite, it isnt. You got it 'right' the first time: copyright - it's about people's rights.

Seriously though, I can't see the point either, but I suspect that it is related to the need of some parents to photograph or film every public appearance of their little darlings (preferably emphasised by their performing a reading or a prayer or whatever).

You don't have to perform to participate.

[Hare]

On another thread...

This is off topic.. send for the Moderator(s).

I have misgivings about the whole, participation for children is doing the readings, which our primary school and others seem to think is the way to go. It puts a lot of pressure on children, sometimes very little children and is a bit annoying if you then struggle to hear them. Is it cute? No. It is awkward on all occasions when I have seen it done. (Which is quite a few).
Bonkersly and inspite of all above discussions around the issues (trying to stay on topic Modoc) I now have pressure from some quarters to try somehow to round up all the Confirmees and engage them in wanting to help with the singing. There can be no surer sign of a lack of general organisation in a parish for anyone to suggest this is the next step for young people's energies. (I would not mind if they volunteered). I quite often get accused of having "let them get away"!

And loudly off topic, smacked hand, at the end of Sunday Mass the catechists, all four of them, were given flowers! For turning up for 14 sessions! It just made me laugh.
Anway I don't feel like such a bad fairy for questioning the relapse into favourite hymn singing. We did sing the Alleluia (Seek ye first) and all other important bits. And well too. People just don't know that if they slid into a weekly favourite hymn singing session interspersed with Mass bits, they would get tired and stop coming. I know if I put on a hymn singing hour with all yer favourites, no one would come. I am learning to smile and do what needs to be done, but cor dear, it's so hard pleasing everyone

That may have been OT on the thread it was on but it's still worth saying. While involvement with music is an excellent way to keep young people involved in the Church it has to be something they want to do. Pressurising them to sing when they don't want to (especially if they can't) is more likely to be counterproductive. And getting them to read before they are ready to is also fraught with difficulties.

When to thank people, whom to thank and how is another can of worms but well worth discussion and I hope also covered under the general heading of Participation. What happens at other people's parishes? Are the right people thanked or are deserving cases overlooked?

I am having a similar experience at the moment. Out of 5 confirmation candidates, one is in the choir, and apparently 3 of the others "have singing lessons" so I am being asked why they can't take turns as cantors. I said "Great - please join the choir". Reply: "Ah - well - homework....after-school-clubs....family commitments.....has Saturday morning school se prefers to come to the vigil mass and stay in bed on Sunday.....etc" Who ends up as the villain of the piece? Me! "You let them get away".

(Rant Alert) NO I DIDN'T AND NEITHER DID YOU, OOPS. THEY LACK COMMITMENT. Parents are desperate to find excuses, to cover their OWN lack of commitment. "The choirmaster won't involve the children" is an excellent excuse isn't it?! (Rant over - for now)

[Angela Barber]

Hare, you're fortunate. Here, after the sacrament of confirmation, seems to be the time for complete absence of our young people from anything to do with the church; they don't appear to darken our doors again and one can only hope that, in later years, they will return to the fold. Two choir members deserted the week following confirmation, leaving us with only one choir member under 21 years; perhaps its something I've done!
On a slightly different subject - I've introduced "Lord for tomorrow" into next Sunday's service. The older choir members loved it - said it brought back many memories and the multi-national choir members picked it up quickly and were equally enthusiastic. I wait to see how the congregation take it on Sunday - please God they won't behave as they usually do - looking dumbstruck with mouths firmly closed......
On the subject of thanks - we have a pp. who has never heard of the word thank you!

[keitha]

I agree. Once the children leave primary school the vast majority of them seem to be lost to the parish and, presently, there is nothing that links them to parish worship when they go off to our local catholic comprehensive, where the music staff seem to have little knowledge of catholic liturgical music and (possibly because of that) do little to teach the children anything useful from that viewpoint. I appreciate the many pressures that teachers are under now, which did not apply when I was a child, but it ought to be possible to do more. Maybe more should be done to strengthen parish/school links.

I hear that many good things are happening in the Leeds Diocese with our teenagers in terms of liturgical music. Is there someone who could perhaps tell us what is going on, what the objectives are and how successful it is proving to be?

[oopsorganist]

Hi Keitha
Two sources of help are the workshops run by MCB and Nick Baty, see thread on the matter on this page, and West Yorkshire Church Music group which Doc can tell you about if it is still running.

As for the teenagers, the fact that there is any kind of thought that the music people should round 'em up and get them to join the choir, that is nonsense! It reveals the lack of parish structure for the support and guidance of the younger parishioners. If there is nothing there for them after Communion, after Confirmation, then we need to have a good think about this. As Leeds Diocese prepares to close churches and merge parishes, it is probably a good time as any to be thinking about this.
I suppose some places have youth clubs and groups and what have you. We don't. But the music group has younger members. This means we all have to be CRB checked. It also means, that there are additional complications in organising practices etc. because they need to be looked after. It is very different to having all adults in a music group. It also means that the quality of the music is changed. No one minds this and the fact that our young parishioners are very visible in the music group and on the altar is often praised. I would not like a lot more youngsters in the group. This would be a different role. The organisation and maintenance of such a group would be too much for me.
The whole issue is about roles and duplication of roles.
I "do" the music. Accompany Mass, teach new music, lead what practices can be arranged, plan the services, support others in doing so, liaise with the primary school, put up the hymn numbers, make Mass sheets for special days, tune guitars, .......make sure people have the sheet music they need and know what page they are on, put up the music stands and plug everything in, sometimes sing new stuff and very occasionally teach congregation new bits before Mass.................and I am not really very good at quite a lot of the above!
and I do Fair Trade, information posters, notice board, tea and coffee supplies, chocolate stall,
This is enough.
I suppose when people put pressure on, we should have something to say back, like, well, when are you organising a meeting? Let me know and I will come along and we can take it from there.

[keitha]

Thanks oops for your response. I'm not sure that I entirely understood your last comment and am a bit concerned that you are doing too much and may finish in the local coronary unit! It is however often true that if you want something doing, you should ask a busy person. It is a sad fact in most parishes that I come across that too much is done by too few and there is a lack of participation generally.

I was aware of Nick's and MCB's efforts, but I have also heard about a programme that I think is being run from Leeds Cathedral.

[oopsorganist]

Oh sos

I mean, when people say "Why don't you get the Confirmees to join in with the music?" we should have our answer ready, and say back to them, Great idea, everyone is very welcome" or for my situation, "Oh yes, what a great idea, you organise it and THEN and only then, can you call on my skills to help YOU out". Bounce it back at them and thus take the pressure off yourself. It has taken the discussions on this thread to clear my mind. I was feeling guilty for not doing everything for everybody. I must do more bouncing. And probably more house work!

I have taken a huge hammering from my musician partner over all this. And then I walk away feeling a failure.

But it is not my job. If the label says "Organist" it does not mean "Youth Worker" or "Missionary"or even "School Liaison Person".