plainchant mass, etc.

[Nick Baty]

the musicians learn, practice and lead, and over time the rest learn to follow. It's quite straight-forward when you think about it.

Couldn't be less straighforward. Angela is introducing a setting which, judging by her post, is not well-known in her community. She has said that her choir is working hard at getting to grips with it. One day soon, she will have to introduce it to her assembly. And my question was, quite simply, if it's been hard work with the choir – who, I have no doubt, are very able – how we she go about introducing it to the assembly? I'm presuming that – unless it's a very unusual parish – Angela will only be able to detain the assembly for a couple of minutes before Mass.

[gwyn]

Once the choir/music group are confident in carrying their line, its repetition by use will make it increasingly familiar to the punter-in-the-pew. It'd be a very unusual parish indeed if on Sunday numero uno everyone - including those who arrive late, those who are just visiting and those who are just by nature slower at picking up a tune than Mr. or Mrs. Average - are able to sing a newly introduced Sanctus or a Memorial Acclamation from scratch.

While the church's plan that all Acclamations are owned and sung by everyone, one has to be realistic and accept that a learning process unites and brings about ownership. Personally I cannot adhere to this rigidity of exclusion wherein unless everyone can sing Sanctus x on day 1 then we must abandon it.

We use a few satb Sancti (there's a good word) in Abergavenny, one uis polyphonic in places; the people sing 'em with ghusto. there was a time when they didn't simply coz they hadn't gone predictably along the "don't yet know it . . . now know it very well" continuum. The learning process unites and brings about ownership.

Be comfy getting it wrong a few times. As Paul Inwood once rather eloquently put it, "One day we'll join in that perfect, heavenly liturgy; until then we'll sometimes get it wrong. Offer that up too".

[Nick Baty]

unless everyone can sing Sanctus x on day 1 then we must abandon it.

It must be our intention. And if I didn't aim at everyone singing it on day one, then I'd be singing it alone. Surely wrong.

[mcb]

And if I didn't aim at everyone singing it on day one, then I'd be singing it alone. Surely wrong.

I don't think so. Lots of music is within the assembly's grasp after they've heard it a few times; much less is accessible instantly. If we confine our repertoire to the latter then we'd be missing out on music that's richer and more challenging than items programmed just because they're catchy.

My favourite example is the Sanctus from Missa Orbis Factor, which we've sung throughout Lent for the last four years. Way too hard to pick up at first hearing, but the choir have led and the people have followed, so that over time it's become a song for the whole assembly. As chant goes it's sublime - makes the Sanctus from Missa De Angelis sound dreary and rambling - and there's a good case for saying it's the most beautiful piece of music our assembly sings.

[Nick Baty]

Lots of music is within the assembly's grasp after they've heard it a few times

Agreed

much less is accessible instantly.

Agreed

If we confine our repertoire to the latter then we'd be missing out on music that's richer and more challenging than items programmed just because they're catchy.

Agreed

Missa Orbis Factor...Way too hard to pick up at first hearing, but the choir have led and the people have followed

Agreed – but you wouldn't just launch into it without introducing it the assembly first. Particularly those parts which they are supposed to sing.

As chant goes it's sublime - makes the Sanctus from Missa De Angelis sound dreary and rambling

With you 20,000 per cent on that one – Missa de Angelis is crap.

PS Haven't you clicked that Assisi Acclamations is based on Orbis Factor.

[mcb]

[but you wouldn't just launch into it without introducing it the assembly first.

No, that's right - the first week we did it I led the assembly through it before Mass. Not that they got far with it then, but it sent out the signal that they're supposed to join in.

[mcb]

PS Haven't you clicked that Assisi Acclamations is based on Orbis Factor.

OK, I've just given it a good ten minutes humming and poring over scores, and I think this may be a wind-up. (I tried to see a match between benedictus qui venit and your blest is he who comes in the Lord's name, but I can't persuade myself that the resemblances are distinctive, as we forensic experts say. )

[Five minutes later:] Oh, hang on, you mean the Kyrie! Yes, I get it. Nice.

[Nick Baty]

Yep – the Kyrie is the basis of the Holy.
It was more fun writing Latin Liturgy in English.

[Southern Comfort]

With plainchant, as with everything else, it really won't do just to get the choir proficient and then leave the assembly to pick the music up by a process of gradual osmosis. That's very close to discourtesy, IMO. Nick is insistent, and rightly so, about the need for cantors and song leaders to teach the people, piece by piece, week by week, for as long as it takes to encourage them and build them up and get them comfortable. This is true for all our repertoire, from the simplest chant to the most demanding assembly piece that you can think of. With plainchant, it will be particularly important since this kind of music can be counterintuitive for assemblies with little or no experience of it. Then the cantor will need to add another dimension: not just doing it in a way that gets the notes right but in such a way that the music has a chance to become part of the people's prayer.

Doing that teaching every week as a matter of principle will also, of course, improve the confidence of the choir as well. Failing to do it will produce what I have so often noticed over the past 40 years: assemblies who don't really know things well and so don't sing them; assemblies who have never been asked to join in on a consistent basis and so don't; assemblies who have picked things up incorrectly and cannot now be changed; assemblies who clearly don't feel valued by the musicians who lead them. The role of the cantor or song leader in encouraging the people, and in presenting new material to them, is crucial; and it should be something that is normative for us. That, of course, assumes that cantors have been properly trained (many haven't, alas) in how to put things across to a congregation. This lack of training may be one reason why we don't teach things properly, why cantors are afraid of doing it, why Father doesn't like the cantor to warm up the people before Mass..... There is a real technique involved in doing this, and we owe it to our people to acquire it if we don't already have it.

[mcb]

...the need for cantors and song leaders to teach the people, piece by piece, week by week, for as long as it takes to encourage them and build them up and get them comfortable.

Hmm... Really not sure about this. I have a feeling the cantor's job is more about inviting people than actually teaching them. That's the main purpose of the cantor's five minutes before the start of mass - to send out the right signals of permission/invitation/encouragement. Of course it's helpful to show people how the notes go too, but I find it hard to imagine that it's hugely helpful to revisit the same material week after week. People do pick things up gradually, not by osmosis but by listening and joining in with growing confidence.

[Nick Baty]

Agreeing with both MCB and SC.

Yes, the cantor must teach the assembly but should never appear to do so. The assembly didn't come to learn – well, not music anyway. I once witnessed a cantor address a cathedral congregation with the words: "And now we're going to learn...." – I'm surprised he didn't empty the place in minutes.

The words SC uses are pertinent: "encourage them and build them up and get them comfortable". That's by far the best way. And it's not far from MCB's description of how the cantor should give "the right signals of permission/invitation/encouragement.

Before now I've presented our lot with a brand new piece and said "Can I remind you how it goes..." For some reason, that's more effective than using the word "New".

I find it hard to imagine that it's hugely helpful to revisit the same material week after week

Yes, it can be. We're doing a new Gloria in a couple of weeks. Initially the assembly will sing the opening and closing (For you alone are the Holy One) sections and our parish singing group will provide the middle (Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father) section. Eventually, everyone will sing it all. But I will remind them how it goes on Week 2 and – having rested it for week 3 – again on week 4.

This all brings me back to my pet project of planning – and the reason I sat up until 2am this morning finishing our music lists up the the Feast of Christ the King. You need to be able to see how much you're asking of the assembly and when. I mark new and unfamiliar items in red (and don't expect to see more than one red line every three to four weeks) and I mark items which are still being assimilated in blue. At a glance I can see how much I'm asking of them.

Someone once asked me how I managed such a good sound from our people (OK, they came on a good week!) and I replied that I attended as many parish barbecues, jumble sales and parties as possible. The cantor might be a teacher but shouldn't be seen as such. He's a member of the community with a particular ministry – not some quasi professional who pops up now and again.

[Nick Baty]

assemblies who don't really know things well and so don't sing them;
assemblies who have never been asked to join in on a consistent basis and so don't;
assemblies who have picked things up incorrectly and cannot now be changed;
assemblies who clearly don't feel valued by the musicians who lead them.

And I would add to SC's list:
assemblies who don't realise the choir is a part of them
choirs who don't realise they are a part of the assembly

[keitha]

I love this concept of the 5 minute 'warm-up' before mass starts. I guarantee you that some two thirds of the congregation arrive at 10.59 for 11.00am mass in our parish! Still, at least one third of the congregation will be up to speed. Then we have to find the cantors who can do the job and are willing to put in the time to gain the required skills.

[Nick Baty]

We don't start until most of 'em are there. On 27 September we're beginning with James Walsh's Father We Come to You. They've not sung it before. Without the run-through they wouldn't be able to and the procession would enter to silence. It's a totally practical thing.

Then we have to find the cantors who can do the job and are willing to put in the time to gain the required skills.

You sound like a fairly sensible sort of chap – do you not have the required skills?

[Southern Comfort]

I agree with everything that Nick has said in his last few posts, especially the bit about teaching without appearing to. That's all part of the technique I was referring to.

To answer mcb's objection, following up on what Nick said, it takes at least four consecutive weeks, and probably more like eight, to get a congregation to the point where they can be comfortable with something like the Gathering Mass Sanctus. This is because you start with just one section (the Hosannas) and each week you revisit what you did the week before and (if they seem up to it) add another section. It takes much, much longer with a congregation than with a class of 7-year-olds, whose ability to retain things is frightening. (With them, you could do the whole Holy and they'd remember it the following week.) And when you've got that Sanctus to a reasonable point (and those Hosannas will have enabled you to add at least part of the memorial acclamations early on), there's always something else to start on.

Finally, I think it's the three minutes before Mass, rather than the five. If you can't do what you need to do in three minutes, then you're trying to do too much at once. I generally try and aim for a two-minute maximum (people haven't come to church for a music lesson; they've come to pray) which gives room for "spread". With an assembly that is used to a warm-up before Mass, if you're only going to run through the response to the psalm with them that will only take 30 seconds or so.

Exceptionally, for a big occasion with several less familiar pieces on the go, you might take five - seven minutes; but ideally you'd have started to prepare the ground a number of weeks beforehand so that on the day you wouldn't actually need that long.

Once again, we need to make the warm-up a regular part of what we do. Yes, maybe some folk will arrive late to avoid it, but you'll have a core of people who do know what's happening. And my experience is that if the cantor is seen to be a builder of community before Mass most weeks, people actually do get the message and start to try to arrive in time for the warm-up, especially if it feels more fun than burdensome.