negotiations and hymns choices.....

[oopsorganist]

Oops, this nearly starting with the thread heading of Nogotiations, then it got spelt Negatiations.. either of those might have been apt. We are having a Mass on Sunday where we celebrate our newly Confirmed young people and it has been, not a battle, but an interesting serious of discussions, around what we sing and why. The good news is that several people have been involved in planning the music and this includes the youngsters themselves. The bad news is that when I saw the pre prepared Mass sheet today, various agreements had been over ridden.......ending up with I the Lord of Sea etc, GIfts of Bread and Wine, and for communion, Do not be afraid, Be still for the Presence, and How Lovely on the Mountains, (where did that come from I wonder) finishing with Shine Jesus Shine. I am bored already. Eagles Wings got mentioned at the end of this list.. this was my choice for DURING communion because the music group CAN do this reasonably well, and it is a good choice for this Sunday. Everyday God was deleted even though the words were made available to the sheet -preparer. And why would we need three hymns for Communion?
Which just goes to show you that you should not trust the production of Mass sheets to others! Will people never tire of these hymns? Shall I just give in and let them sing those every week? Rasenfrasen. (That is what Muttley says in Penelope Pitstop I think).
At least we did not end up with If I was a Butterfly and Colours of Day which is where the Negation came in. Or Father in my life I see, which for some reason, I can't stand. Or This Little Light of Mine.
I hate having to plan the music. It really does take a lot of energy and thought. I often wish I could hand it over to others. I feel nogots and negats. Simultaneously a spoil sport and thwarted.
Oh well
Sigh

[docmattc]

Moving folk on is a slow process, and at least some of the dross has been dropped. We had confirmations last week and I went to discuss the music with the candidates beforehand, but gave them a series of choices rather than a completely free hand. We compromised with "This is my body" (I would have preferred the Psalite piece of the same name) and "I the Lord of sea and sky", but we also had Bob Hurd's 'Veni Creator' and Martin Barry's 'O redeemer'.

Which just goes to show you that you should not trust the production of Mass sheets to others!

Indeed. I produce all our service sheets, primarily to make sure the copyright is in order. Much of what you've listed there Oops is not covered by Calamus so I hope that whoever has prepared the sheet is merely refering to a number in a hymnbook.

Will people never tire of these hymns?

Those of a certain age remember them with fondness because they brought a breath of new life to the church, nostalgia ensures that they don't notice the hallitosis said breath has acquired with age. Those younger need to be exposed to better fare in order to realise that other repertoire is available.

I hate having to plan the music. It really does take a lot of energy and thought. I often wish I could hand it over to others.

It does take a lot of energy and it should do. It takes me the best part of an hour to plan the music for any Sunday. Most folk don't realise that its not simply a matter of picking 'some hymns wot I like' or even just playing liturgy planner bingo. At Confirmations the other year someone commented on how appropriate the music was, as if it happened by lucky coincidence!

[oopsorganist]

Aye yes, oh well,
better to sound off on here, than let lose on an unsuspecting and rather willing workforce!

That is a good suggestion to give them a choice of.. don't why it didnt' occur to me, but that would help with the situation which really does arise fairly often.......... too much choice and it ends up no choice at all, or favourites. I guess I forget most people don't spend that much time looking through hymn books.

Anyway it all went well and there was cake too.

[gwyn]

If ever a clutch of individuals take it upon themselves to choose hymns for a one-off Mass, (I'm carefully avoid using the word 'interfere') they almost invariably select Here I Am, Lord; I Watch the Sunrise; In Bread We Bring you, Lord; As I Kneel Before You.

Maybe the trick would be to get them to plan a three-year cycle of not just hymns but the full menu of Mass music in advance, then they'd get a real taste of the demands of the job.

[lesley wright]

At our Confirmation Mass on Friday we had "All are welcome", "We shall draw water", "Everyday God" and "Christ be our light" but did end with "Shine, Jesus, Shine". They were largely the young people's choice and certainly we could hear the young people singing in the body of the church - and total strangers came up to me after to thank me for the music. A few weeks ago I was seeking help on this forum for the music of "Christ has no body now but ours" and someone kindly referred me to the correct place - a group of the girl confirmands sang it as a post-communion hymn and it actually sounded much better than I'd anticipated. All in all it was a good event - but since about 40% of the youngsters hadn't been seen in church since their First Communions until contacted about this a few months ago, it will be interesting to see how many of them continue to come to Mass. Ah well, I guess if we even keep hold of the 60% we do see quite frequently we'll be doing okay. I wonder how much the choice of music actually influences people's thinking about coming to Mass.

[Nick Baty]

I wonder how much the choice of music actually influences people's thinking about coming to Mass.

Much as I am involved with music in the liturgy, I'd like to be able to say "Not at all". But the reality is that, after what the Missal gives us, there is much which can influence people.

A good or bad preacher can attract or discourage people. And I believe the same is true of music.

Music which is well-chosen and executed is important. Compare that with music which sounds like someone's top ten or which is not well-rehearsed, with musicians looking disorganised and the assembly unsure of when/if to come in.

I'm not sure if good music influences people but I'm pretty certain that bad music does.

The music in our parish is far from perfect and we make mistakes – huge mistakes sometimes. And we're the last place on earth someone would visit specifically for the music. But I do know that, occasionally, a stranger has commented on the music and then come back another time.

Lesley has hit upon something here: what we do and how we do it really, really does matter.

[johnquinn39]

I think that the problem, as I have said in a previous post, is lack of education. We had an excellent liturgy course in the Birmingham diocese many years ago (given by Fr Peter Jones).

However, this was discontinued, and many RC teachers now leading the liturgy and choosing music have no knowledge of the liturgy (or repertoire).

On a positive note, at the confirmation Mass on Sunday, we were actually allowed to sing the Psalm and Alleluia! - and the youngsters joined in very loudly.

[Nick Baty]

Allowed?

[johnquinn39]

Allowed?

Yes. This is usually forbidden in childrens Masses. It is also forbidden in my previous parish.

[Hare]

Allowed?

Yes. This is usually forbidden in childrens Masses. It is also forbidden in my previous parish.

Forbidden by whom?

The Children's Liturgists in my parish tried to stop them being sung at "Children's Masses" (which were nothing of the sort) to allow 2 extra children to take part - one to read the psalm, another to read the Gospel acclamation. PP wouldn't have it though, I'm pleased to say! I tried "meeting them half-way" by suggesting using ones from "Music for Children's Liturgy Of The Word" (Walker) but he (PP) insisted on the "correct" versions, ie response & verses, some of the Walker settings are simply a chorus. However, I get the blame from the teachers/parents for being "fuddy duddy" because everyone is too terrified of the PP to take it up with him.

[johnquinn39]

Allowed?

Yes. This is usually forbidden in childrens Masses. It is also forbidden in my previous parish.

Forbidden by whom?

RC teachers, I suppose (and some priests). But why?

[johnquinn39]

Perhaps this is another thread, but...

Childrens liturgists

All they seem to know is that the psalm and acclamations should be recited / paraphrased, and that there 'has to be a hymn to Our Lady at every Mass'.

[docmattc]

Perhaps this is another thread, but...

No I think we're still (for now) broadly on the topic of negotiation and hymn choices. To be fair to them, I wouldn't limit the target to children's liturgists, or suggest everyone of them is to blame.

It seems to me that the problem is one of liturgical catechesis. Over the past 40 years it has been so poor that the vast majority are still have a 'low Mass with hymns' mentality. In spite of the good examples we set, a four hymn sandwich is the default position for many, all those 'other bits' are optional extras.

[keitha]

Its interesting that we are still, fundamentally, dealing with the mentality of 'low mass with hymns'. 'Sing the Mass' was published in 1975 and here we are, 34 years later, dealing with congregations that have not, in the main, had the catechesis/formation to move on from there. That is no real surprise - when I was a child, High Mass was seen less than once a year, Missa Cantata was only attended by a small proportion of catholics and low Mass only occasionally had hymns.

Perhaps the question really is what should be done to improve the liturgical understanding of the average person in the pew, most of whose formal religious education ceased at the age of 11, and of our school staffs, where in many cases the majority of the teaching staff are not practising catholics. At least then, the choices would be on an informed basis and, in the case of our schools, there might be a reasonable 'repertoire'.

I have no answers - but it is a problem with which I am grappling. Any ideas? Then you have, by the look of it, priests who ban the singing of psalms at what are loosely called 'childrens' masses!

[johnquinn39]

Just to clarify:-

The priest(s) at my parish do not ban psalm singing at children's Masses. (The teachers are seeking 'participation' when they require these to be recited).

At my previous parish, psalm singing has been forbidden for many years, although I think a concession is made at Holy Week when 'All who see me deride me...' is allowed.