When do the children leave?

[Nick Baty]

When do you usually dismiss the children for Children's Liturgy?

For some time we sent them out immediately after the greeting, sometimes continuing the gathering song as they left or singing something short and seasonal (eg Walker's Stay Awake in Advent) as they left.

Sing Easter, we've kept them in for the Penitential Rite and then dismissed them immediately after – this way the Gloria has become their processional song and it seems to work quite well.

I'm interested in what other communities do.

[docmattc]

Ours leave just before the penitential rite, but if I had anything to do with it they'd leave after the Gloria, so they have their own liturgy of the Word only and don't miss half the introductory rite.

They come back in (when timed properly) at the offertory and bring their work (which is "I won't hit my brother" no matter what the Gospel of the day!) up in the procession. Also problematic as we've moved on from the Word to the Eucharist by then.

The Lit Office has guidelines on this and a prayer acompanying their dismissal somewhere. Its a long time since I've looked at it though.

[Southern Comfort]

It all depends on how far they have to go. It may in some circumstances be necessary to dismiss them immediately after the opening sign of the cross and greeting.

and bring their work up

Oh no they don't. The purpose of this liturgy of the word is not to produce work (that's a task for a classroom, not a liturgy), but to celebrate the word, just like the adults do. I know that the majority of parishes still don't do this, but they should be doing it. No children's 'activities', no work, no bringing up things for the priest and people to inspect (all of these are fine for for very tiny children, but not for those of 5-6 and upwards). What they should be doing is celebrating and reflecting on the word, just like the rest of us. If indeed they are doing this properly, then there won't be time for any activities.

If you need a decent resource for this, go for the Sunday materials imported into this country by Viewpoint (see http://www.viewpoint24.co.uk/sundayhome.html). The leader's handbook explains in detail how to enable the children's reflection on the word without any of the actively-to-be-discouraged activities that well-meaning people like Katie Thompson and Joan Brown have published in the past (because they are not liturgists). What those things do is turn Liturgy of the Word with Children into a kind of liturgical creche, keeping the children occupied while the adults get on with it. What resources like Sunday do is enable children to celebrate the word.

This means that the cringe-making inquisitions that one often sees in parishes when the children return with the procession of gifts can be effectively eliminated. No bulletin boards with coloured pieces of paper stuck on them, no papier-maché artefacts. No Father asking "What have you been up to?" (to which the correct answer should be "Breaking open the word, just like you grown-ups, but at our own level").

[contrabordun]

Ours don't leave at all, they go straight to their Liturgy on arrival at church, and come in during the offertory/collection. They don't get to do a show and tell though - just go to join their families.

[docmattc]

The purpose of this liturgy of the word is not to produce work

I know that, you know that, but I wouldn't dare suggest it

[Vox Americana]

With deference to Musicus, I'm gonna bend the thread a little...

Can anyone tell me why the children leave for the Liturgy of the Word at all?

I hear ya, when you say that their celebrating the LoW at their own level, but then why do they come back for the Eucharitic prayer, which they cannot understand any better surely and for the Communion that they may not receive? And, once they've made their first eucharist, why go out at all: the Church considers them to be of an age of reason and they should be fully participating as reasoned people. If you think about adult catechumens who are dismissed after the LoW and before Eucharist, why don't we do the same with our children?

By the way, Southern Comfort, I guess that you don't actually run a Children's LoW regularly! The LoW is not a fixed length of time, specially given Fr's homily and variable length scriptural chunks, and some week's I have ten or more minutes extra to other weeks. If the kids ain't talking and discussing the Scritpure and responding to questions, makes the celebration and breaking the word mighty quick and it is so-oo useful to have the backup of an activity. On top of that, some people learn by doing, not just talking and list'ning, and the activity can help them remember the scriptures. These kids are 4 to 6 years and their attention span is only about 20 minutes tops, then they want to be up and doing something different. Heck, sometimes I think some adults would be better doing some activity: at least they'd show they were awake to the Word

[Southern Comfort]

By the way, Southern Comfort, I guess that you don't actually run a Children's LoW regularly! The LoW is not a fixed length of time, specially given Fr's homily and variable length scriptural chunks, and some week's I have ten or more minutes extra to other weeks. If the kids ain't talking and discussing the Scritpure and responding to questions, makes the celebration and breaking the word mighty quick and it is so-oo useful to have the backup of an activity. On top of that, some people learn by doing, not just talking and list'ning, and the activity can help them remember the scriptures. These kids are 4 to 6 years and their attention span is only about 20 minutes tops, then they want to be up and doing something different.

On the contrary, I am involved with a LOWC (it's not a Children's Liturgy of the Word but a Liturgy of the Word with Children ─ there is a difference) most weeks, so I do understand the variable time lengths that can be involved. And I can tell you that even with the longest scripture readings and homily, it's sometimes difficult to have enough time to unpack the scriptures with the children in the time we have. All I can say is that it all comes down to the quality of the leaders and how good they are at eliciting discussion with the children on the readings.

Yes, attention spans are not long (and that's true of adults as well, if we're honest), but when you need a break, you sing the psalm setting (and Chris Walker's settings, in the Sunday material, are brilliant for this ─ they're also published separately by OCP), and the Gospel Acclamation (ditto, ditto). There can also be times for prayer. In other words, if you truly make the Liturgy of the Word a varied liturgical experience, rather than casting around desperately for things to keep the children occupied, you'll have much greater success, in my view. There are also other ways of channelling children's energy. Even in a confined space, it is possible to have a circular Gospel procession going round the room ─ a good way of preparing the children for Gospel processions in the main church, and subconsciously forming them in the understanding that there is something special about the Gospel reading.

As I indicated before, I do think that in most cases 4 is too young an age to be exposed to all this. At this age, activities are probably a great help. By the time they're 5, however, it's rather different. The rapid development of children is certainly an aspect of all this which we haven't really got to grips with, although I know of some places that have. It can be extremely beneficial to split the children up into groups of 5-7 and 8-10 years old, for example. If you've got 3-4s, then by all means do activities. But once they're in primary school at 5, move on from that.

[Vox Americana]

There are also other ways of channelling children's energy. Even in a confined space, it is possible to have a circular Gospel procession going round the room…

Neat. I'll try it.

If you've got 3-4s, then by all means do activities…

yep! I have and you're right, it is too young to do all the discussion and get a meaningful dialog. But I reckon somethings stick, even at that age, and definitely will try processing - and tellin 'em why. Then they can ask mom and dad why they don't join in. Does anyone else have parents who 'escape' from LoW with their kids? What are they thinking?!

[FrGareth]

In my parish, I continue my predecessor's practice of dismissing the children after the greeting and before the penitential rite.

The prayer docmattc refers to is on p. 13 of http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/SOS/LOWC.pdf - we don't currently use that but now I know it's there...

On Good Friday 2008, we had a Children's Stations of the Cross in parallel with a celebration of Lauds & Office of Readings. Since the children needed to use the Stations installed in the church, I dismissed the adults to go to the Hall for the Divine Office while the children stayed put (something I've always wanted to do since hearing a Baptist minister challenge his congregation about keeping beautiful churches while children had Sunday School in peeling-paint ante-rooms!)

FrGareth

[docmattc]

I dismissed the adults to go to the Hall for the Divine Office while the children stayed put (something I've always wanted to do since hearing a Baptist minister challenge his congregation about keeping beautiful churches while children had Sunday School in peeling-paint ante-rooms!)

Indeed! In a similar vein, it would be interesting to see the priest go and celebrate the Liturgy of the Word with the children on a Sunday, leaving the adults in church to get on with it themselves!

[gwyn]

...it would be interesting to see the priest go and celebrate the Liturgy of the Word with the children on a Sunday, leaving the adults in church to get on with it themselves!

I'd wondered aboug this too, but it seems that there's a point during the Mass after which the celebrant simply can't leave the sanctuary. Maybe someone will enlighten us.

...since hearing a Baptist minister challenge his congregation about keeping beautiful churches while children had Sunday School in peeling-paint ante-rooms!)

Funny that, I remember as a child going to Jerusalem chapel down the Merthyr Valley and longing for the moment in the arid chapel service when we'd be dismissed in order to go the the paint-peeling, smelly, ill-maintained Nissen hut for Sunday School, we'd have great fun there. Eee! It takes you back.