Archbishop of Westminster

[presbyter]

I thought I recognised that mitre ....... +V has "permanently borrowed" it from Birmingham !!!!! I wonder if our new Archbishop will demand its return - ha! (Mind you - it was made by the nuns of Southam for Bishop Moriarty of Shrewsbury - and seems to have been deposited in Birmingham by the late Bishop Gray. Archbishop Vincent wore it for all big occasions in Birmingham.)

[keitha]

I have been given to understand that Shrewsbury might like to have it back. I hope it was a joke! It was described to me by the person who first suggested that Archbishop Vincent should wear it as "a mitre to die for"! I thought he was kidding me until I saw it yesterday.

[musicus]

Interesting to note that we had 'Praise to' as a recessional/final hymn!

Yes - I thought that too. He picked up this bad habit in Birmingham!

[musicus]

Full marks to Matthew Martin for giving an exemplary lesson on how to lead congregational singing on the organ throughout.

Yes, indeed; wasn't he good! Such rhythmic playing. Just as well, too, when All people that on earth do dwell and Praise to the Holiest are on the menu: two of those hymns where you have to 'feel' rather than count when to move on.

[VML]

Musicus said: 'Yes - I thought that too. He picked up this bad habit in Birmingham! '

Couldn't that possibly be to continue the Newman connection?

[presbyter]

Couldn't that possibly be to continue the Newman connection?

For bears of little brain such as myself - who didn't quite get this post at a quick glance - Newman wrote Praise to the Holiest - my goodness, I am thick.

[Southern Comfort]

A correspondent in the USA asked this today:

I am curious about the coronation (ooops, installation) of “Lord Vincent” at Westminster. As I looked at the program, I could find new music, but it sets Latin texts. Apart from the memorial acclamation, I couldn’t find anything for the congregation more recent than the late nineteenth or early twentieth century—certainly all preconciliar. I couldn’t imagine asking a congregation to join in the Latin Sanctus to that elaborate Gregorian setting without some practice.

So is all of this simply typical for Westminster, or is something retrograde going on with the new archbishop.

Well, he has a point, and I hastened to reassure him that the problem wasn't with the new archbishop.

I haven't yet watched all of the broadcast myself, but one thing stuck out early on. By the time you get to the Gloria in a big service like that, the one thing everyone wants to do is let rip. What does Westminster give us? ─ Palestrina, which excludes everyone except the choir and gives the cameras a chance to go walkabout. Does anyone remember the glory days of Liverpool, Clifton and Birmingham when great Gloria settings which integrated (cantor,) choir and congregation were the norm? Those settings are still there, but Westminster doesn't seem interested.

[presbyter]

I am curious about the coronation (ooops, installation) of “Lord Vincent” at Westminster

Shouldn't that be "Earl Vincent"? But then one cannot expect an American to understand the degrees of rank of the British peerage.

[Southern Comfort]

In relation to John Ainslie's comments, whilst the Gathering Mass has its values and uses in parish worship, the thought of its Sanctus appearing in the Installation Mass does make me cringe a bit - it would have stood out like a sore thumb!

You've obviously never heard this sung at a Chrism Mass by a packed cathedral, a large diocesan choir, with a brass arrangement to add that frisson of excitement. On several occasions I've experienced a wall of sound which made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.

Having said that, I tend to think that perhaps the Coventry Sanctus (with the brass sextet version) would have made an even better choice.

[Southern Comfort]

I am curious about the coronation (ooops, installation) of “Lord Vincent” at Westminster

Shouldn't that be "Earl Vincent"? But then one cannot expect an American to understand the degrees of rank of the British peerage.

Didn't the Provost, Canon Michael Brockie, actually address him as "Lord Vincent" in his address to him in front of the cathedra? I assumed this was the bit borrowed from the 12th-century (or whatever it was) rite for installing the Archbishop of Canterbury, though the commentary didn't tell us.

[presbyter]

Didn't the Provost, Canon Michael Brockie, actually address him as "Lord Vincent" in his address to him in front of the cathedra?

Ah - so he did. I'm sure the Westminster clergy will get used to addressing him as "Your Grace" though and not "My Lord".

[musicus]

... perhaps the Coventry Sanctus (with the brass sextet version) would have made an even better choice.

Indeed. Or the Glastonbury Gloria (Walker). We did this with organ and instruments at the aforementioned Mass for Musicians in Birmingham recently, at which +Vincent presided, and it worked splendidly, in spite of its very irregular metre.

[MaryR]

...I tend to think that perhaps the Coventry Sanctus (with the brass sextet version) would have made an even better choice.

This is one of the few Inwood pieces that I'm not so enamoured with. It's something to do with heaven and earth being full. I always wonder quite where that leaves us!

I agree with Southern Comfort, though, that the Gathering Mass can sound splendid, suitably dressed up for a big occasion. And it must be one of the best known Mass settings we have.

Or the Glastonbury Gloria (Walker). We did this with organ and instruments at the aforementioned Mass for Musicians in Birmingham recently, at which +Vincent presided, and it worked splendidly, in spite of its very irregular metre.

It didn't work for me, Musicus! I'd never sung it before, but it didn't grab me at all. Though the congregational refrain is reasonably easy to sing, it's hard to jump in with it quickly enough at the end of each verse, and I didn't enjoy singing the verses at all!

For my money, you can't beat Peter Jones's Coventry Gloria for a big occasion. Another Gloria that works well for big occasions, though you wouldn't describe it as a 'big' Gloria is Bob Hurd's Chant Glory to God, or the Bong Gloria as we call it in our parish. It's published in Journey Songs - not sure if it appears anywhere else - and it's quite lovely.

[presbyter]

I thought I recognised that mitre ....... +V has "permanently borrowed" it from Birmingham !!!!!

I have discovered that the mitre is, after all, being returned to Shrewsbury.

[mcb]

In relation to John Ainslie's comments, whilst the Gathering Mass has its values and uses in parish worship, the thought of its Sanctus appearing in the Installation Mass does make me cringe a bit - it would have stood out like a sore thumb! Sanctus VIII has its limitations, but I felt that it did the job, fitted with the style and solemnity of the mass and, from what I could see on TV, most people seemed to be joining in with it.

I agree with keitha - the Gathering Mass wouldn't have been right for the occasion. For me the Amen is where it falls flat - we end up where we began, so to speak, while in (e.g.) Marty Haugen's Mass of Creation or Richard Proulx's Community Mass there's a sense of having arrived somewhere. (It might just be the choral arrangement of the Gathering Mass that's its weakness, which is why I think keitha's also right to say that it's of real value for simple parish use.)

Speaking of settings of the Gloria for a big occasion, I'd second MaryR's nomination of Peter Jones's Coventry Gloria, and definitely add John Bell's Glory to God in the Highest, with honourable mention to the settings from the Mass for John Carroll by Michael Joncas and the Mass of the Creator Spirit by Ed Nowak. All three published by GIA.

Does anyone remember the glory days of Liverpool, Clifton and Birmingham when great Gloria settings which integrated (cantor,) choir and congregation were the norm? Those settings are still there

Where, SC? One of the repertoire headaches I have in planning liturgies for a cathedral is the lack of musically inspired and challenging settings of the Mass ordinary that nevertheless accord the people their rightful role. I'd be grateful for recommendations and precise pointers. (In a separate thread?)

M.