Bring flowers of the rarest

[musicus]

[My apologies: while editing, I have managed to move my last two posts four places down the page, after presbyter's helpful answer!]

[presbyter]

No one has made a comment yet that if we followed the opening instruction to the letter, we would be damaging our national treasury of rare flora and might even be open to prosecution for endangering the survival of protected species:

1 Bring flowers of the rarest,
bring blossoms the fairest,
from garden and woodland
and hillside and dale...............

I believe that the relevant legislation can be found in sections 8 and 13 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1981

[Nick Baty]

Couldn't we just ask Groundforce to add decking and a water feature?

[Southern Comfort]

We sang it when I was at primary school, way before Vatican II, but I've never encountered it since. It would be like going back to nursery rhymes - infantile regression in a big way.

Southern Comfort's words might be interpreted in a way that suggests texts sung before the council are less mature than that composed afterwards. I trust this is not the case.

Many hymn texts (and tunes) for Marian devotion are indeed "Faberian Victoriana". Are post-concilliar (or to further Southern Comfort's analogy, "adult" ) examples better? They are certainly less numerous.

No, I was not implying any maturity based on date of composition. I was implying, however, that some preconciliar texts are intended for children's use, and that it is important for us to be able to discern the difference between these and others.

No one would ever suggest that Praise to the holiest was anything other than strongly doctrinal; nor indeed the better texts of Faber. Whether some of the other devotional effusions are equally "adult" is another matter. But "Bring flowers" is most certainly a "kiddies' ditty", and was so before the Council, and I strongly suggest that we should no longer be using such things indiscriminately in adult (or indeed any) liturgies.

[presbyter]

Much as I can empathise with SC's laudable aspiration here, I don't think infantilism and sentimentality will ever be completely eradicated from the life of the Church. Take a fairly recent visual example - the Divine Mercy picture. That, in my opinion, is an inartistic, saccharine, mawkish, childish and amateurish daub. As an aid to adoration and prayer, "it does absolutely nothing for me" - it's tasteless - and a somewhat sardonic colleague has dubbed it "Our Lord of Chernobyl". BUT - many adults are of exactly the opposite opinion - spiritually, "it does it for them" - and if it does, why shouldn't it? Perhaps it might be an interesting exercise to get those who like singing "Bring flowers..." (and similar texts) to try to think (and write down) what this text and melody is "doing for them" spiritually. Anyone on this thread, who likes singing the hymn, willing to answer that?

[presbyter]

"The kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old."

Perhaps Gwyn might have a stab at an answer? He has, after all, given this composition treasury status.

[Nick Baty]

Anyone on this thread, who likes singing the hymn, willing to answer that?

Well I love singing the hymn – and many more of its ilk – but usually while driving down the M6 or across the Pennines on the M62 rather than in church. But your question raises so many more:

What is I watch the sunrise all about? And why do people like it? Does anyone understand As I kneel before you? And why did St Teresa of the Roses (which to me sounds like Mona Lisa) and Dana's Totus Tuus (pass the sick bag) sell more than one copy?

Why do I love singing Tantum Ergo in a church with incense wafting its way through evening sunbeams? Why do I have happy memories of strewing rose petals before the Blessed Sacrament (and of my dad's anger at losing his best blooms every June)? Why does O Sacred Heart move me as much as Anne Shelton's recording of I know why (and so do you)?

There's sentimentalism and sentimentality (still not sure of which is which) and nostalgia (which is not what is used to be). And there's liturgy and rite and ritual, within the liturgy and outside it. And to what extent (if at all) should our parish liturgies pay lip service to external rituals? Should we observe Valentine's Day when none of the three Valentines remain in our calendar? Or should we relate to what has become a secular ritual and celebrate love and relationships?

And, in the case of Marian devotion, the Sacred Heart, the Holy Souls etc, should the traditional 12-month cycle of devotions be dovetailed into our three-year eucharistic cycle? Or should they, as was the case in my younger days, be kept as separate afternoon or evening devotions?

Sorry, Mr Bear, I've done it again.

[VML]

If the topic is sentimental hymns, you are still on track, I reckon.
Bring flowers... I never heard that one at school, and we haven't sung it for years, but As I kneel before you.. , we seem to have it for every other wedding and funeral. I know it it is a favourite of our PP, because we escaped it for at least ten years before he came.
I watch the sunrise: The appeal of this is, I think, in its ambiguity. Close to whom is not clear till the last word, somehow including God in with the human relationship.
We managed both of these, plus (help) Bind us tog...at last week's funeral.

But it's not just recent or even Victorian writing that can appear OTT. I remember a whole sermon at school on the 'sweetness of Our Lady,' based on Salve Regina.

[Southern Comfort]

As I kneel before you.. , we seem to have it for every other wedding and funeral. I know it it is a favourite of our PP, because we escaped it for at least ten years before he came.
I watch the sunrise: The appeal of this is, I think, in its ambiguity. Close to whom is not clear till the last word, somehow including God in with the human relationship.

As I kneel before you was written by a group of 15-year-old girls on a school away-day at the St Thomas More Centre back in the mid-1970s. It therefore seems fair to describe it as representing an adolescent spirituality. I personally think it's a great shame that it has become so widespread.

I watch the sunrise is Fr John Glynn's personal meditation on the Lord's closeness to all of us. I don't think it's ambiguous at all - it's very clear from the final word of the refrain that it is addressed to the Lord. While I wouldn't put it in the forefront of my favourite hymns of all time, I don't object to it, and it doesn't seem to me to be mawkishly sentimental as some of the others we have referred to in this thread undoubtedly are.

The question we are talking about could be summed up as follows:

"Why is it that devotion always seems to go hand-in-hand with bad taste?" Discuss.

My own view is that part of the answer lies in the balance that we need to find between heart and head. Where the heart reigns supreme, the risk is one of an excess of piety and language which is frankly embarrassing. Where the head reigns supreme, the risk is one of merely conveying doctrinal concepts with an associated coldness or remoteness.

There is also the question, which we have debated before, of the individual v. the collective. I am often uncomfortable with texts that use "I", "me" and "mine", and more comfortable with texts that talk about "we", "us" and "our". This seems to me to reflect the difference between personal prayer and the Church's communal liturgical activity. It is sometimes possible to adapt texts so that they speak about the Body of Christ as rendered incarnate in the particular situation we find ourselves in. An example of this would be "O Jesus, we have promised to serve you to the end"; but on other occasions we have to abandon texts that are simply too personalistic to use in corporate worship.

[gwyn]

Last Sunday's Recessional included the first verses of the following hymns:

O Purest of Creatures,
Bring flowers of the Rarest,
Ye Who Own The Faith of Jesus,
Regina Coeli,
As I Kneel Before You,
Immaculate Mary, Your Praises We Sing,

Dunnow where this all fits liturgically, maybe nowhere at all. All I can say in its defense is that seldom does anyone leave the church until the very last "Ave Maria" is fervently sung. Are people spiritually uplifted? Certainly. Verse after verse is sung with ghusto. Is it a nostalgia trip? Yes, for some, the sacred scriptures are filled with examples of nostalgia when the people of Israel remembered when The Lord had not abandoned them. We'll only do the Marian medley once during the month of May, it's Paschatide this year (most years?) after all.

Is it wrongly placed after the Dismissal at Mass? Maybe, but so would any other song or hymn it seems.

It works for us, it might not tick any boxes elsewhere.

"The kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old."
Matthew 13: 52

[HallamPhil]

Re I watch the sunrise
I was once informed (but cannot recall the source) that this was the reflection of one who knew he was about to die, who reflected on the last time he/she might see the sun, moon etc as being temporary for him/her but concluded that God would always be present. This affirmation lends itself to funerals therefore and not to the many others occasions on which this popular song is often used.

Of course it may be nothing of the sort!

[johnquinn39]

The time for the hymn of praise is after Communion. There is no hymn (as a rule) after the blessing and dismissal. Mass has ended.
I would refer you to the relevant paragraphs of GIRM, CTM and other documents but they are not to hand.

We have tried on two occasions in the last few years to follow the rubrics, and sing the communion antiphon, then have silence, and then sing the final hymn before the dismissal. (In my vew, this worked very well indeed)

However, this upset and angered so many people (why, I don't know), that we have reverted to having a hymn after the dismissal.

[contrabordun]

(why, I don't know)

cos that way they were forced to stay for the whole of the hymn. The other way round, they could nip off during v2.

(lest any member of my current church reads this, I hasten to add that this is from prior experience - where I am now they rather impressively stay for the communion hymn, blessing and dismissal, Angelus (replaced in Eastertide by a translation of the Regina Coeli set to the tune Easter Hymn) and final hymn and then head for the exit during the volly).

[johnquinn39]

... what [is] this text ... "doing for them" spiritually.

In my previous parish, I was requested to replace one of the Easter hymns with 'O purest of creatures'.

I questioned why we should be singing 'Dark night hath come down on us' & 'And the banners of darkness are boldy unfurled', (on a sunny Easter Sunday), and was informed that: 'I NEVER take any notice of the words'.

However, if you really want to raise the roof with singing at Mass, the above, and 'As I kneel before' you will probably do the trick.

These texts and music are obviously doing something for people, although I am not quite sure what.

Any ideas anyone?

[contrabordun]

These texts and music are obviously doing something for people, although I am not quite sure what.

I could tell you what they do for me, but the system would probably **beep** out most of the terminology.