Bring flowers of the rarest

[musicus]

Indeed, pirate. Tell out my soul meets the case, especially at the end of Mass.

[Alan]

... As for the actual hymn. This is interesting. Look at the different accompaniment versions that are available. Normally people do it in a 'churchy' 4 part block harmony version; but if you look at the 'swing' of the melody, then it clearly will go well (albeit rather crudely) with a waltz type um-pah-pah pattern. I have a feeling (I might be wrong about this) it comes in this guise in the original 1890s edition of the Notre Dame Hymnal. Certainly this contains arrangements of other hymns in this sort of style. Who says that a 'happy-clappy' 'folk' (in the loosest Kevin-Mayhew sense) style popular idiom was not available to Catholics in the 'good old days'! ...

Thomas's post reminds me that Bring flowers was one of the triple-time hymns to get the Viennese treatment at the Clifton SSG Summer School (1993?), when I and the family played a medley of 'Catholic waltzes' at the concert. Even-handed as always (!), the last number was Bob Hurd's Oh, how I long to see. (The funniest item, however, was Paul Moynihan's recitation of the Psalm 22 (23) in business-speak, beginning ''The Lord and I are in a sheep/shepherd situation'. Paul had asked me to accompany him by playing Crimond quietly on the piano,but he hadn't warned me what he was going to say. In the event, it was all I could do to avoid sliding off the piano stool, helpless with laughter, which some said was almost as funny as the reading.)

[presbyter]

I bet it's pagan assimilation.

With respect, I think a better term is "inculturation", rather than "assimilation" - the former implying the Christianisation of an existing cultural practice/ritual, radically changing its significance.

Examples - the feast of Christmas (originally victory of the sun) - and, come to that, the question of orientation in the liturgy (praying together in the direction of the rising sun).

May Queen festivals predate Christianity - fertility festivals in honour of Flora, Artemis, Maia, Diana, whoever..... and May Day is the Saxon feast of Beltane.

Inculturation continues - for May Day now is (optionally) Saint Joseph the Worker - a Christian response to the “May Day” celebrations for workers sponsored by Communists. Pius XII instituted this feast in 1955.

But back to Mary......

The whole of the Directory on Popular Piety is well worth reading:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20020513_vers-direttorio_en.html


....... and particularly in regard to Marian Devotion:

186. The fundamental principle of the Magisterium with regard to such pious exercises is that they should be derivative from the "one worship which is rightly called Christian, because it efficaciously originates in Christ, finds full expression in Christ, and through Him, in the Holy Spirit leads to the Father"(214). Hence, Marian devotions, in varying degrees and modes, should:

- give expression to the Trinitarian note which characterises worship of the God revealed in the New Testament, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; the pneumatological aspect, since every true form of piety comes from the Spirit and is exercised in the Spirit; the ecclesial character, in virtue of which the faithful are constituted as the holy people of God, gathered in prayer in the Lord's name (cf. Mt 18, 20) in the vital Communion of Saints(215);

- have constant recourse to Sacred Scripture, as understood in Sacred Tradition; not overlook the demands of the ecumenical movement in the Church's profession of faith; consider the anthropological aspects of cultic expressions so as to reflect a true concept of man and a valid response to his needs; highlight the eschatological tension which is essential to the Gospel message; make clear missionary responsibility and the duty of bearing witness, which are incumbent on the Lord's disciples(216).

I leave it to your own judgement as to whether or not "Bring flowers......" harmonises with this expressed hope.

[presbyter]

We have also recently learnt the Regina Caeli .........

Now that's the traditional Marian text to sing at this time of year.

[presbyter]

Indeed, pirate. Tell out my soul meets the case, especially at the end of Mass.

No. The time for the hymn of praise is after Communion. There is no hymn (as a rule) after the blessing and dismissal. Mass has ended.
I would refer you to the relevant paragraphs of GIRM, CTM and other documents but they are not to hand.

[presbyter]

]Here's a suggestion - but NOT on a Sunday
http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/TextContents/Index/4/SubIndex/67/TextIndex/6

[musicus]

[The whole of the Directory on Popular Piety is well worth reading:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20020513_vers-direttorio_en.html

It certainly is. I have just re-read it - it is long! - and it is splendid; quite the best treatment of the liturgical/devotional tension that I have read.

[presbyter]

...... quite the best treatment of the liturgical/devotional tension that I have read.

Well yes! But for further reading - expanding on the paragraphs I quoted above on the Biblical, Liturgical, Ecumenical and Anthropological aspects of Marian Devotion, and the most inappropriate practice of an admixture of the celebration of the Eucharist and Marian devotion - see what, in my opinion, is an eminently sensible and sound document: the Apostolic Exhortation Marialis Cultus of Paul VI http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

Paragraph 31 is of particular relevance but don't take that paragraph out of context - read the whole document.

[presbyter]

On Sunday we shall be crowning Our Lady at Mass ............... as we have a quite famous Shrine in the church

Oh my - one sees RobH's Norfolk location and thinks of Walsingham (not that that shrine has been neglected a little, surely?)

[presbyter]

But, to repeat my (amended) question, is it inculturation, or is it a foreign import?

A quick glance through a few of my books suggests that in post-emancipation Catholic life -

Pius VII granted an indulgence of 300 days daily to those who practice May Devotions at home or in church - and a plenary indulgence on the usual conditions on one day in the month. That was in 1815.

A Rosminian priest - Dr Gentili - promoted Pius VII's brief and introduced May Devotions to England in the mid-nineteenth century. So one might argue that May Devotions in 19th/20th and 21st century Catholic life are an Italian import.

[presbyter]

Where did all this statue crowning and flower strewing come from? Is it indigenous or must we look further afield?

Professor Kurt Küppers, Augsburg. Marienlexikon, Vol 4, p. 244-246

Read at -
http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/questions/yq2/yq367.html

In what might have originated as prayer for the protection of the blossoms - so that they might fruit and there be a good harvest - it seems to me a little ironic that blossoms came to be stripped off for the purposes of strewing. Maybe I'm allowed to strip the five flowering cherry trees in the garden for their fruit is inedible.

[RobH]

I'm sorry that Presbyter's thoughts are wrong (for once!). Our shrine predates the revival (1931) at Walsingham by over 30 years and is 25 miles distant. Of course, I wouldn't be referring to Walsingham. Although it is not as well-known as it ought to be, our shrine is still visited by faithful pilgrims en route to Walsingham. Our statue of Our Lady of Walsingham was blest and the shrine sanctioned in 1897 by Pope Leo XIII- doesn't take much working out where it is situated if you know your English Marian history.
You may be interested to know that they sang "Bring flowers of the rarest" at Walsingham and crowned Our Lady on 1st May as is the tradition. To redress the balance, for those who are snooty about these Victorian pot boilers, we do sing plainchant here and always sing "Regina Caeli" in Eastertide - OK!

[Nick Baty]

You may be interested to know that they sang "Bring flowers of the rarest" at Walsingham and crowned Our Lady on 1st May as is the tradition.

But not on May 3rd as was the case in the parish at the top of this thread.

[musicus]

Indeed, pirate. Tell out my soul meets the case, especially at the end of Mass.

No. The time for the hymn of praise is after Communion. There is no hymn (as a rule) after the blessing and dismissal. Mass has ended.
I would refer you to the relevant paragraphs of GIRM, CTM and other documents but they are not to hand.

t's a fair cop, guv ! I spoke loosely and you are correct - but I suspect that most UK parishes do it wrong.

[musicus]

I bet it's pagan assimilation.

With respect, I think a better term is "inculturation", rather than "assimilation" - the former implying the Christianisation of an existing cultural practice/ritual, radically changing its significance.

Yes, I know that too, but I didn't want to show off with a big word.
But, to repeat my (amended) question, is it inculturation, or is it a foreign import?