Archbishop of Westminster

[keitha]

I would just like to say that I am very grateful to presbyter for his response to my comments, and am very happy indeed to accept his assurance. If it helps, I was not at all offended (but have to confess that my misinterpretation caused a degree of mild irritation!).

I, too, would miss presbyter's contributions, which I have always valued greatly. Please do keep them coming.

[NorthernTenor]

Presbyter wrote:

'll disappear again then ... lest I unintentionally offend more.

The suggestion and the possibilty are both unfortunate. We ought to distinguish between informed discussion of ideas, grounded in a respect for Catholic tradition, and emotionally charged response to change.

ps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgo_u9TMqA0

[festivaltrumpet]

In order to return this thread to its original topic, I am going to attempt to post some

dispassionate and reasoned debate,

neither of which have been greatly in evidence recently, to the detriment of this Society.

At the outset of this discussion,

What is the accuracy of the statement than the incumbent in Westminster becomes de facto leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales?

because media reports of the time promoted this thought.
In a radio interview Archbishop Nichols himself said that "leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales" was a misnomer, but accepted it was an inevitable epithet due to the location of the See. The Catholic press continues to propagate the misinformation, referring to His Grace as appointed "to the most senior post in the English Hierarchy" in an article, the substance of which states he has not yet been elected as president of the Conference.

The media, secular and religious are unable to comprehend the term ‘collegial’, and the Church does not try very hard to explain it.

[JW]

Perhaps the Vatican does consider the Archisbishop of Westminster to have some sort of overall leadership role in England & Wales, otherwise, why not leave Archbishop Nicholls in Birmingham and give him the red hat in due course, with a strong hint to the Hierarchy that they should elect him as leader of the Bishop's conference? Whoever they intend to appoint to Birmingham could have been appointed to Westminster instead. That would have set the cat among the pigeons!

(BTW, The misconception was promulgated in our (Southwark) parish the other week with bidding prayers for "our new cardinal"!)

[musicus]

In order to return this thread to its original topic, I am going to attempt to post some

dispassionate and reasoned debate,

neither of which have been greatly in evidence recently, to the detriment of this Society.

Agreed. I think that it is worth reminding people that, while the SSG runs this forum and takes responsibility for what is posted on it, membership is open to members and non-members alike (not that membership guarantees "dispassionate and reasoned debate", of course.)

At the outset of this discussion,

What is the accuracy of the statement than the incumbent in Westminster becomes de facto leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales?

because media reports of the time promoted this thought.
In a radio interview Archbishop Nichols himself said that "leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales" was a misnomer, but accepted it was an inevitable epithet due to the location of the See. The Catholic press continues to propagate the misinformation, referring to His Grace as appointed "to the most senior post in the English Hierarchy" in an article, the substance of which states he has not yet been elected as president of the Conference.

The media, secular and religious are unable to comprehend the term ‘collegial’, and the Church does not try very hard to explain it.

Precisely.

[NorthernTenor]

FT wrote:

I am going to attempt to post some

dispassionate and reasoned debate

Hear him, hear him!

[docmattc]

Perhaps the Vatican does consider the Archisbishop of Westminster to have some sort of overall leadership role in England & Wales, otherwise, why not leave Archbishop Nicholls in Birmingham and give him the red hat in due course, with a strong hint to the Hierarchy that they should elect him as leader of the Bishop's conference? Whoever they intend to appoint to Birmingham could have been appointed to Westminster instead. That would have set the cat among the pigeons!

JW, that would have been what I'd like to have seen too, why must everything be so London centred?

[Nick Baty]

why must everything be so London centred?

Well the poor *beep* have little of any serious value.

The Pennines are northern - as are Patricia Routledge, Thora Hird and Victoria Wood. To say nothing of Bleasdale, Russell, et al. Admittedly, Alan Ayckbourne was born in London but he has since made good.

The North produced the Beatles while the South only managed The Stones (actually, not too bad). But the greatest performer to hit the West End, Joseph Grimaldi, was from Italy.

We had the first redbrick university and while Alan Turing was born in London, he is commemorated in Manchester by a ring road and a statue in the heart of the gay village.

The oldest known Parliamentary site – Thingwall (the Wirral one, not the Liverpool one) – is up here. And the bloodiest battle on English soil took place at what is now Bromborough.

Catholicism was fairly well protected up here. (Inspired, no doubt, by the many northern martyrs.) And London has often looked to the North to provide a bishop or archbishop (in this case both).

From long before the days of cotton, the North has fed the nation's economy. From time immemorial, the North has provided the nation with culture.

Let them have Vin for a time. He's a nice guy and, who knows, he might bring some style and culture to that poor deprived motropolis.

PS. Should have mentioned, I am a total bigot!

[Nick Baty]

PPS (As I can't edit the above!)
Didn't the northern miners and dockers help to bring down Thatcher?
Doc Matt we have so much of which we can be proud.

[musicus]

Thanks Nick. The situation is somewhat mitigated if you consider where the archbishops of Westminster came from. Bernard Griffin was elevated from Birmingham, and Vincent Nichols is a born and bred Liverpudlian. Another one, IIRC, was Bishop of Salford. Basil Hume, of course, went to London from Yorkshire. There may be more - I can't remember. So at least they weren't all Londoners.

Does anyone know the date of Vincent Nichols installation? I think he's off to London on 21 May (having celebrated our annual Mass for the musicians of the diocese on 10 May). I have very happy memories of Basil's installation, and of the Vespers in Westminster Abbey later the same day.

[Nick Baty]

And Cardinal Godfrey who was born in Liverpool. (And who suggested that Catholics should feed their pets less during Lent.)

And Cardinal Heenan who was trained in Leeds and Liverpool before being sent on the London mission in 1963. Greatest quotes have to be "A church that is half empty is half full" and "At home it is not only women and children but also fathers of families and young men who come regularly to mass. If we were to offer them the kind of ceremony we saw yesterday in the Sistine Chapel we would soon be left with a congregation mostly of women and children."

And Cardinal Hinsley who was born in Selby (whose Abbey includes the arms of the Washington family which inspired the star and stripes – but we can forgive them that).

I read recently that Birmingham and Manchester both claim to be the second city of the UK – how sad that they're both behind Liverpool.

[presbyter]

Does anyone know the date of Vincent Nichols installation?

His Grace celebrates a farewell Mass for the Birmingham Clergy on 14th May, followed by a buffet lunch. I believe that the removal vans appear on 15th May.
His installation at Westminster is on 21st May.

If you would like to compare the two diocesan website front pages today - Westminster seems hardly to have noticed the new appointment - in my opinion.
http://www.rcdow.org.uk/
http://www.birminghamdiocese.org.uk/

Please say a prayer for Birmingham, as it goes into Apostolic Administration pro tem.

[musicus]

His Grace celebrates a farewell Mass for the Birmingham Clergy on 14th May, followed by a buffet lunch. I believe that the removal vans appear on 15th May. His installation at Westminster is on 21st May.

Thanks, presbyter. I sit corrected about the details and illuminated about the installation.

[lesley wright]

Basil Hume, of course, went to London from Yorkshire. .

He was, of course, originally a good geordie lad.

[organist]

See the blog on the diocese of Westminster site. The music sounds really exciting and it will be an amazing occasion. http://www.rcdow.org.uk/installation/blog/?post=67
We are honoured to be involved.