Glory to God

[contrabordun]

I'm using the Gloria from Owen Alstott's Heritage Mass (http://www.ocp.org). It is simple, very singable and involves the congregation singing all the words, straight through, once.

I'm not fond of Responsorial Glorias - the logic seems to be, first, artificially break up (or rewrite) the words of the Gloria and give them to a cantor/choir. Then, having taken the perfectly good and very well known words of the prayer away from the congregation, invent a refrain in order to give them something to sing.

The assumption that only a cantor/choir is capable of sustaining a long tune tends to mean that these items will be said in places where there isn't a cantor, and creates a single point of failure where there is.

Much better IMHO to have a simple setting that everybody knows and can sing. Provided the tune isn't too melodically (or rhythmically - another pet hate) unpredictable, it only takes a few weeks of singing it every week and you're home and dry: the people join in (because they know it), your liturgy is that much safer against outbreaks of illness and holiday amongst The Few, and (most importantly) having everybody singing makes for a much more Glorious Gloria.

The Jones setting was an effective solution to the particular needs of the Papal Mass, but I think it has suffered from overuse since, possibly because of the quarter of a million copies that the occasion left floating around the midlands...

[SOP]

I'm not fond of Responsorial Glorias - the logic seems to be, first, artificially break up (or rewrite) the words of the Gloria and give them to a cantor/choir. Then, having taken the perfectly good and very well known words of the prayer away from the congregation, invent a refrain in order to give them something to sing.

The assumption that only a cantor/choir is capable of sustaining a long tune tends to mean that these items will be said in places where there isn't a cantor, and creates a single point of failure where there is.

Well said. Over the years I have sung in many locations where the congregation have sung the whole Gloria. I do not know when the attitude that a congregation were incapable of singing the Mass came in but I do wish we had more music leaders.

Much better IMHO to have a simple setting that everybody knows and can sing. Provided the tune isn't too melodically (or rhythmically - another pet hate) unpredictable, it only takes a few weeks of singing it every week and you're home and dry: the people join in (because they know it), your liturgy is that much safer against outbreaks of illness and holiday amongst The Few, and (most importantly) having everybody singing makes for a much more Glorious Gloria.

I totally agree. A pet hate of mine is when the Mass settings are changed every week so the congregation hardly get a chance to become familiar with anything.

The Jones setting was an effective solution to the particular needs of the Papal Mass, but I think it has suffered from overuse since, possibly because of the quarter of a million copies that the occasion left floating around the midlands...

Ah, I like the Coventry Gloria but I know some organists who have great problems with it.

I am beginning to dislike any Gloria which is over-complicated as I get the impression we are supposed to stand back in awe at the beautiful music along the lines of "glory, glory to the Gloria! How wonderful this Gloria is!"

[Ros Wood]

Who said the Congregation can't sing the verses of a Responsorial Gloria?In our parish we encourage those who wish to to join in the whole thing (we'd have a real problem stopping them!!) but the responsorial refrain means that visitors can join in with something.

I'm afraid I'm guilty of writing a Reposonsorial Gloria but the whole of it is sung heartily by all those in our Congregation who wish to.

[contrabordun]

Who said the Congregation can't sing the verses of a Responsorial Gloria?

Good point well argued.

And I don't dislike the Coventry Gloria as such (after I eventually got the hang of playing that fourth beat semiquaver twiddle that introduces the refrain in the right place - rhythm has never been my strong point); it's just that I've heard it more often than perhaps is fair to expect any piece of music to stand.

[contrabordun]

a Reposonsorial Gloria

sounds very restful ...(sorry, couldn't resist)...

[Chris]

I'm afraid I'm guilty of writing a Reposonsorial Gloria but the whole of it is sung heartily by all those in our Congregation who wish to.

One problem of responsorial settings of the Gloria (and to some extent this is true of through composed settings also) is how to respect the structure of the text of the hymn. For example, the invocations addressed to God the Father in the first section would seem to suggest a different musical language than the petitions in the middle section addressed to the Son of God.

On the other hand, a responsorial setting that had (lets say) three verses, could go some way to evening out references to the Holy Spirit, who as the third person of the Trinity gets somewhat neglected in this ancient hymn!!

This is one of the earliest sung texts that we know was used in the early church (though in prayer hours, not Eucharistic celebration) - and it is interesting to note that the evidence seems to suggest that although much of the singing in the 4th C was responsorial, the Gloria in Excelsis was indeed sung straight through, presumably by all gathered for morning prayer.

Chris

[Merseysider]

The Jones setting was an effective solution to the particular needs of the Papal Mass, but I think it has suffered from overuse since, possibly because of the quarter of a million copies that the occasion left floating around the midlands...

Just introduced Coventry Gloria to my small choir: we're using it for our parish's 200th anniversary in September because it sounds so wonderful with brass and timpani (have added string parts too!).

From one choir lady: "I love that NEW Gloria".

From another: "When did this all start? All this singing at Mass? We never had it when Father X was here".

Currently running a series of workshops in another Merseyside parish. Last night introduced them to Bernadette Farrell's Dm-ish Sanctus. "All this NEW music", said one. Another added: "Will Father mind if we sing the holy bits?"

What so many of us consider old hat it groundbreaking in many parishes.

Merseysider

[contrabordun]

Is anybody still using any other items from the Coventry Mass? I always thought the Veni Sancte Spiritus was rather good, and we used it for a few years where I grew up, but haven't heard it in ages, or seen it in any books recently.

[Merseysider]

Occasionally the Sanctus. Often "Jesus is Lord". What was the Agnus? Can't remember it now.

[musicus]

Is anybody still using any other items from the Coventry Mass? I always thought the Veni Sancte Spiritus was rather good, and we used it for a few years where I grew up, but haven't heard it in ages, or seen it in any books recently.

Chris Walker's Veni, Sancte Spiritus went on to become something of a classic. There is a slightly simplified version in Music for the Mass (volume 1, no.76), and a fuller version, including the wonderful coda, in Laudate (307).

In addition to its obvious uses at Pentecost and at Confirmations, the piece makes an extremely effective Gathering Song; quietly meditative for the most part, but building to a grand climax at the end.

Musicus

[musicus]

Occasionally the Sanctus. Often "Jesus is Lord". What was the Agnus? Can't remember it now.

It was a rather fine E minor piece by Bernadette Farrell, but I don't recall seeing it printed elsewhere than in the Coventry Music booklet. Hopefully, someone will prove me wrong.

Musicus

800th article !!!

[pirate]

Dragging this thread back to Glorias - Paul Wellicome's Dancing Gloria is a belter - very singable, very memorable. I know this, because at a choir party in Denmark a couple of weeks ago I sang it all the way through while Matt Butchers played it. We had nothing on paper, just memories of a Summer School two years ago.... *sigh*

pirate

[SOP]

a choir party in Denmark *sigh*

pirate

*HUGE sigh*

[SOP]

Have just been to a Mass, erm not sure how to describe this, it was for the feastday of Jose Maria so the vast majority of people there were from Opus Dei. Anyway, we sang the Gloria after a little hiccup. The organist played a single note and everyone looked at each other wondering who was supposed to start what. The Bishop intoned Glory To God In the Highest but then the organist jumped in with the opening bars of the 'normal' Gloria in Excelsis Deo. Once it got going it was quite good to have eveyone sing it all the way through. I must admit that I did need to look up the latin version in the hymnbook mainly because it is so long since I sang it through.

At the end there was consternation as a priest from the ambo said thanks to all there and the Bishop etc and said we would now sing the final piece, Salve Regina. Great. Altar servers, Bishop, Arch Bishop, priests formed the procession and the orgnaist played - Praise My Soul the King of Heaven. It wasn't on the board so the sound in the church was a mix of "huh", "what number is it?" and some smart alecs (including ME!) singing Praise My Soul. Just as the procession was reaching the sacristy, the organist started Salve Regina.

[gwyn]

We have three or four Glorias in current use:

Bob Hurd's Missa Ubi Caritas (I get to play the drum for that one!!)
Peter Jones' Coventry Gloria (I get to play the organ loudly for the final Amen !!!)
The latin one - de Angelis?
and another one (possilby the Lourds) which we are phasing out slowly.

The mood of the celebration dictates which one we use.

Works for us.

I quite like the idea of Paul Wellicome's Dancing Gloria, who's it published by? Puts me in mind of the dancing priest in an episode of Fr. Ted.