Associations and Styles of Music

[Mancunian]

Psalm Project's thread on the possible use of his chorus of Hebrew slaves, and in particular Docmattc's comments, caused me to think about when I might choose not to use a particular piece of music and why.

It seemed to me that one ground for exclusion would be that the piece had specific associations that might be a distraction from worship to at least some of the assembly. I would not use it for other reasons (including that we would never be able to sing it) but I would not reject say the Shepherd 'Western Wind' Mass on that ground, as I doubt that anyone present other than me would recognise the original Western Wind tune (let alone think of the original secular words to the tune - totally inappropriate to the liturgy). Conversely if the Byrd Ave Verum (with new words) becomes the favourite chant of England football supporters I'll feel obliged to drop it from the repertoire. As a result I don't use, for instance, hymns that immediately make me think of Finlandia, Beethoven 9, Dave Brubeck's Take 5 or Roger Whittaker. I probably would not use the Verdi on that ground, as I suspect that quite a few people would immediately be thinking of the opera.

That seems a slightly different issue from the style of a piece. I wouldn't have a problem with the passion chorale because the tune began as a drinking song, as it doesn't sound like one now, and so won't make the congregation think of the pub instead of the Mass. Conversely, I might have a problem with a piece of music that sounds as though it ought to be a drinking song! I think that this probably comes back to the same point - I feel that a style of music that seems specifically secular may prove a distraction to worship, and music should not be there for its own sake but only if it enhances the worship of that assembly.

I know that many people take a different view (and I've got to sing or play something to the tune of 'House of the Rising Sun' at Easter with our contemporary music group (where I don't get to choose the music) to prove it).

Mancunian

[Psalm Project]

This is an interesting response and I accept what is expressed.
Just for the record - I am very much grounded in tradition and would always argue the corner of appropriate music.

Two comments;

(I think I have already hinted at this) My decision to use Va Pensiero on this specific occasion is because of the Psalm it mirrors (which is the psalm of the day concerned). It is also familiar music to most, which I think is not a bad thing. I forgot to mention that our choir has expanded numerically significantly since last September and we are actively promoting new membership. This piece of music may well push the boundary a little, but it my also draw attention to our choir (for all the right reasons, I think). I doubt somehow that anyone would find it a distraction - in this case, it is being used after mass is finished.

I am both curious and concerned at your suggestion that you might avoid what are legitimate sacred pieces if they become used in a secular setting... the Byrd Ave Verum might be one example (or any of the other pieces you cite). This would be akin to a dumbing down of what is legitimate liturgical music expression by a secular ethos... (and we all know how English football is God to some )
If businesses use this music, surely it affirms a certain quality that is intrinsically good. If someone makes the connection later when they hear it in church - so be it! You can then hold your head high and educate them as to its origin!

Your comments are interesting.

[Mancunian]

I certainly would not wish to seem to criticise Psalm Project for his use of the Verdi - it was just that the thread on the use of the Verdi caused me to reflect on factors influencing my own music choices. Given that as a recessional it would fall outside the Mass, and especially the connnection with the psalm for that Sunday, I can see the logic of using it if its significance is explained.

One of my thoughts was that the 1903 prohibition on liturgical use of music of a theatrical style should perhaps not be applied too restrictively - if the music enhances worship and is not a distraction it may be justified.

I take Psalm Project's comments about explaining the origin of sacred music that might have developed a secular connection, but I still think that if a particular piece of music were likely to cause members of the assembly to think of football (or an advert for beer, or whatever) I'd drop it from the reperoire (at least until secular culture had moved on again).

Mancunian

[docmattc]

A 'popular' use of any piece of music can potentially ruin it for liturgical use for a very long time.

At last year's summer school Michael Joncas intoduced us to a piece called "Jesus Christ, Bread of Life" set to the Largo from Dvorak's New Words Symphony. It might well work in America, but here we had the Hovis advert in the 1970s (and even worse, in this neck of the woods, a spoof of it which did quite well in the charts). The ad was so successful that even though it was thirty years ago, I can't hear this tune without thinking of bread. I wonder how many people in the pews had heard the NWS in the years BH (before Hovis)?

Similary, the air from Bach's Orchestral Suite No. 3 is in many a wedding music anthology, but I would expect the bride to walk up the aisle smoking a certain brand of cigar if it were used. (Happiness is a sacrament called marriage???) Fortunately Lloyds Bank didn't managed to monopolise Wachet Auf and so ruin that for us.

What about Howard Goodall's setting of psalm 23 (Vicar of Dibley theme)? I've sung this and its not at all a bad choral piece. Should we avoid it because of it calls to mind Dawn French, or reclaim it to the liturgical world?
What about 'Ode to Joy'? (Having just heard Barry Cryer sing 'I am a cider drinker' to this on an ISIHAC CD, I'll never hear it in the same way again!

[Psalm Project]

The cigar was Hamlet! God forbid that I would start puffing on one!
BUT - did the music make people smoke more or eat more Hovis, I wonder?!
Clever marketing people harnessing 'appropriate' music to convey mood!

Va Pensiero it is in two weeks time! As for Ombra Mai fu (Handel's Largo)... I have arranged this in SATB to the words 'Father in heaven'... it works very well and whatever other association it may or may not have, we make no association to it being an ode to a tree!

I know where you are coming from re the Bach Cigars!!! I also hear the 'Happiness is a... called... hamlet'!!!
It does not stop me playing it though! I like it as a Bach piece!

I was practicing the Bach D minor toccata between masses last weekend... Yea! you know the one... Count Dracula! Jeez... maybe I should leave that at home now!

[organist]

Air on the G string - perfect for the smokers at a wedding! I'm certainly not stopping playing Bach because of Count Dracula!
And the Dvorak is lovely at a funeral. Bah!

[Psalm Project]

... Ah yes...
I would not lose too much sleep over it!
The Verdi is a cracker in Italian! I had done it in years past in English... not the same animal at all!
We are going Italian for that Sunday!

[organist]

So Italian pronunciation for Latin too? Pizza anyone? Just one cornetto -it's Lent!

[NorthernTenor]

How furtunate for us that chant and polyphony aren't often used in advertisements or as drinking songs

[Psalm Project]

Ah... now that you mention it... in my neck of the woods, our National Lottery had a bunch of monks swinging out of the bell ropes crooning chant! Nothing is sacred anymore!

[nazard]

...One of my thoughts was that the 1903 prohibition on liturgical use of music of a theatrical style should perhaps not be applied too restrictively - if the music enhances worship and is not a distraction it may be justified....Mancunian

I have been asked to play "Christ is our King, Let the whole world rejoice" and "Colours of day" for our children. I wonder what S Pius X would have thought of those. They're not theatrical, more fairground in style. Does that make them OK? Has anyone got a Marenghi to play them on?

[johnquinn39]

I have been asked to play "Christ is our King, Let the whole world rejoice" and "Colours of day" for our children. I wonder what S Pius X would have thought of those. They're not theatrical, more fairground in style. Does that make them OK? Has anyone got a Marenghi to play them on?

I think that these titles were good of their type and of thier time, although as a child in the 70's, I found this idiom difficult to relate to. (The Rock idiom was dominant at the time - Glam/Prog/Guitar-hero/Punk/Soul/ etc.)

However, in my view, better hymns have emerged since on similar themes with more sophisticated, but equally singable words and music - 'Christ be our light'; 'Jesus, you are the bread' / Farrell - 'Rejoice, rejoice' / Kendrick (or Psallite antiphon verson) - 'All are welcome' / Haugen.

If people can sing and above all pray good biblical songs, then surely this is OK.

What is a Marenghi?

[organist]

The problem is that some people do not move on to better songs and insist on the horrors of "Colours of day" which is not going to support you when faced by bereavement. We should be giving everyone good solid meat and not gruel.

[NorthernTenor]

I suppose it's mainly a problem for matches and dispatches, at which pastoral considerations may require us to grin 'n' bear it. At other masses, good or bad hymns needn't be an issue, because as liturgically informed Catholics we know we have the Propers and Marian hymns to sing instead.

[nazard]

You may be assured that I don't play "Colours of day" voluntarily. However, the Sunday School teachers, or Youth Leaders as they prefer to be known, choose the music for the monthly "Youth" mass. They say that children like "Colours of Day" and so we should play it for them. It is certainly true that under sevens like it. However, teenagers think it is stupid and beneath their dignity. Even worse, they often become ashamed of ever having sung it. It leads them to conclude that religion is for the simple minded and then they leave.

All this is a diversion from the real issue. Pius X sought to stop people singing music "in the theatrical style." I believe that at the time there were a lot of religious solos around in a sort of mock Puccini style. This problem is still around, in a slightly modified form. Imagine "the Servant King" on a West End stage performed by a Frank Sinatra wannabe and you get the idea. We have taken very little notice of what he said. Are we to assume that he really meant to exclude only theatrical style, and that hymns based on rugby songs, folk songs, ballroom or disco dancing, etc. are acceptable?

To answer the other question, Marenghi et Cie. were manufacturers of Fairground Organs. They had a lot of hauptwerk and relatively little foundation. They make a crude but jolly noise which is just right for "Colours of day." There used to be an annual rally of them in Newhall Street in central Birmingham which was always a good day out for the kids.

Stop Press: Imagine the struggle you have in a parish which is dictated to by a few people who want to sing "Colours of day" to get agreement to sing the propers.