keitha wrote:I was told that the BBC are having increasing problems finding venues that can produce a 'parish' act of worship that is at all 'broadcastable' so the producers tend to play safe.
That's because Philip Billson doesn't have a clue about who to ask. There are people out there who can tell you where to look, but the Beeb (i.e. Philip, in practice) is unaware of that. Yes, he knows that Chris Walker is good value and uses him on the Daily Service whenever he's in the country, and yes, he knows about NNPM and Bill Tamblyn, and all that, for special occasions - but the BBC's grasp of what is going on in parishes around the country has completely disappeared, and the idea that you might to go diocesan liturgy commissions for recommendations, for example, has never occurred to them. In the days when they had a Catholic religious advisor, things were very different!
Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! Philip Billson's a great guy with contacts everywhere but he is far from "the beeb", in "practice" or otherwise. The Worship section of radio is a tiny part of a three-strand Religion and Ethics Department (TV, radio and web). And, I reckon the Romans are as well represented on the top floor of New Broadcasting House, Manchester, as any other group – in fact, the recently retired series editor of Songs of Praise was a Catholic. The present head of Religion and Ethics – the delicious Michael Wakelin, is a Methodist with a particular interest in Catholicism and Roman music. I suspect they simply accepted this particular act of worship as yet another example of what Roman do.
Nick Baty wrote:Philip Billson's a great guy with contacts everywhere
Yes, you're right. He is a nice bloke. But he needs help.
Nick Baty wrote:in fact, the recently retired series editor of Songs of Praise was a Catholic.
Yes, but not one who was in touch with what's going on at the grass roots.
Nick Baty wrote:I suspect they simply accepted this particular act of worship as yet another example of what Roman do.
Well, it seems quite clear that they didn't "accept" it. They commissioned it, in effect, from one of their favourite groups. And the problem was that it wasn't true to life, as we have all established earlier in this thread.
If they want to know what Roman Catholics actually do, they need to ask the right people. I mentioned one possible source in my previous post. Here's another: how about asking the SSG? Don't we think we know what's going on?
I am sorry for wrongly attributing the agnus dei. Having listed to it via the link, I preferred Mike Stanley's rendition!
To be clear, Philip Billson's comment to me was not related specifically to Catholic liturgies - it applies across the board. In addition, the problems are not just related to music resources, but cover all of the areas that Nick Baty referred to on 19th January. I have, over the years, directed the music for a number of broadcast services from several venues. In each case, the venue has been nominated after an approach through the diocesan liturgy commission. I think that, on this occasion, Philip was aware of the work that Joe and Mike do, and thought it would be good to have them lead the music for a Sunday mass. Like it or not, their music is popular throughout the country and is an improvement on what was done or not done before they came on the scene, and very many people gained spiritually from the broadcast. I am not a CJM fan (although I rate some of the stuff that they have produced), but I do not think that the BBC should be adversely criticized for this one mass.
There are other areas of debate that may, perhaps, be the subject of other threads (and which MaryR touched upon) - such as the position of CJM in the Birmingham Archdiocese (and beyond), the role of diocesan music and liturgy commissions and whether or not that role is being fulfilled, and the general lack of interest and support (financial and otherwise) that is exhibited by the church in England & Wales for music in its liturgy. Who wants to start that one off? Now there's a challenge!
keitha wrote:... There are other areas of debate that may, perhaps, be the subject of other threads (and which MaryR touched upon) - such as the position of CJM in the Birmingham Archdiocese (and beyond), the role of diocesan music and liturgy commissions and whether or not that role is being fulfilled, and the general lack of interest and support (financial and otherwise) that is exhibited by the church in England & Wales for music in its liturgy. Who wants to start that one off? Now there's a challenge!
Well, the Birmingham Archdiocese does have an active liturgy commission music committee (which includes a member of CJM), but, so far as I know, the liturgy commission wasn't approached on this occasion.
Nick is misunderstanding me (perhaps in seeking brevity I lost clarity). I was referring to those parishes and schools that, prior to CJM, did nothing or, perhaps, the Israeli Mass and not much else (and I still come across them) rather than the composers that Nick has listed, who are all rather further up the quality scale than CJM.
nazard wrote:Not to mention Anon, Bach, Palestrina and Victoria, and a few others.
A question for a different thread, I'm sure, but what vocal music of Bach is suitable for liturgy, barring a few hymn tunes? Did you have in mind the Lutheran Masses, or the B minor Mass - can these really work in a liturgical context? (Or did you mean Byrd?)
Not even the very few tunes. Bach's harmonisations of other people's hymn tunes are what I had in mind. You are quite right, Bach wrote for a liturgy that must have gone on for hours. I doubt if the B minor mass was ever meant to be liturgy.
Bach wrote for a liturgy that must have gone on for hours
It's possible to get a flavour of this in London, where the Lutheran congregation at St. Anne and St. Agnes enjoy a choral vespers, often incorporating a Bach cantata, twice a month:
musicus wrote:Well, the Birmingham Archdiocese does have an active liturgy commission music committee (which includes a member of CJM), but, so far as I know, the liturgy commission wasn't approached on this occasion.
"Active"? - didn't I read in another thread that its "brief had expired"? (Apologies for inexact terminology, but you get my drift)
musicus wrote:Well, the Birmingham Archdiocese does have an active liturgy commission music committee (which includes a member of CJM), but, so far as I know, the liturgy commission wasn't approached on this occasion.
"Active"? - didn't I read in another thread that its "brief had expired"? (Apologies for inexact terminology, but you get my drift) Q
You could be right - I think I wrote that! I must check what its current status is.
