Payment for organists

[JW]

It's a difficult question - servers, readers and choir members don't charge. However, they don't have to turn up week after week. The other organist in our church and I don't charge - but we don't need the money. One way of charging a fee is not to contribute to the collection (though, again, I contribute via direct debit). I don't charge for funerals because I work full time so will only play for friend's funerals. My colleague charges. I will always charge for weddings - unless for a close friend. My £50 fee is insubstantial compared with what the couple are shelling out for other aspects of the celebration. I do expect to practice whenever I want, for free, provided nothing else is happening in the church, and I have a church key for that reason. Because I don't charge, I don't feel obliged to turn up every week and will be absent for 6 to 8 weeks every year.

[manniemain]

Go look at this document and be informed. I am not sure if a similar document exists in the UK. Read it a few times to absorb its content. Read carefullt the lines mentioning that the guidline fees are for a competent amateur - read and understand what exactly that means!
The link is: http://www.liturgy-ireland.ie

Feedback welcome!

This brought tears to my eyes! As I said before I don't take a fee for Sunday Mass + Vigil Mass + Choir rehearsal but it grieves me to see how much they get for nothing yet still complain and grumble.
The Church of Scotland congregation I play for (half an hour after the end of Sunday Mass) do pay me and even though I am not available for a "doors open" voluntary if Mass runs late, are always grateful, friendly and polite. Other congregations I have sometimes played for are the same. The Catholic congregations stand out as being vicious, rude and impolite as well as completely dismissive of what they invariably get for nothing. Why????

[contrabordun]

The Catholic congregations stand out as being vicious, rude and impolite as well as completely dismissive of what they invariably get for nothing. Why????

Either:
They don't really want or like the music, which is why they don't pay for it.
Or:
It's a sad truth that people don't value what they haven't paid for.

[Psalm Project]

This brought tears to my eyes!

) - A good motet would then be 'Weep O mine eyes'...

It is not so much an issue of whether or not an assembly wants or likes/dislikes the music. In a lot of argument concerning the payment of organists (and church musicians generally), it seems to me that it is the musicians themselves - for whatever reason - 'downgrade' their value. I've also observed this among music teachers who teach privately. Many do not charge nearly enough for providing a professional service. Why is this? Do musicians seem to think their craft is not worthy of adequate remuneration? There seems to be a perception that musicians are low earners. They would not necessarily be so if they chose to manage that aspect of their craft in a more business-like fashion. In Ireland, while it does not apply to a large proportion of churches, the Liturgy-Ireland website does, at least, acknowledge the value of musicians in monetary terms. I think this is an important step forward. How that is interpreted and managed at local level is another matter.
In the church situation, whilst I acknowledge that some elect to provide their services free gratis, there are others who depend on whatever stipend they receive to supplement whatever other income they may have. Some of those whom I know would prefer that this fact not be known (out of embarrassment).
It is an interesting subject and there is wide and varying opinion about it.

[Psalm Project]

Just in case some are not familiar with the document offered by liturgy-ireland guidelines relating to payment of church musicians, here it is (2008 updated version): (Do the math sterling conversion yourself!)

Guidelines for Payment of Parish Church Musicians

These guidelines have been prepared by the Advisory Committee on Church Music and were presented to the Bishops Conference in December 2002. The rates are updated annually. Since 2006 the guidelines on fees are jointly published by the Advisory Committee on Church Music and the Church Music Committee of the Church of Ireland Dioceses of Dublin and Glendalough. The following includes the introduction prepared by the Advisory Committee on Church Music published with the recommendations as issued in previous years

These guidelines for fees for church musicians are used increasingly as a reference throughout Ireland. They should be regarded as guidelines and advice, not directives so that each musician and parish should make its own arrangements. The qualifications and ability of the musician, his/her expectations, the ability of the choir, the quality of the church organ, are among the matters which must be borne in mind when applying the guidelines to the local situation

The suggested minimum remuneration levels relate to amateur musicians. Here ‘amateur’ indicates musicians, who may be professionally qualified, and who earn their living principally outside the world of music. Higher rates would be appropriate for musicians who earn their living principally by performing and/or teaching music.

Usually the church musician will be engaged as an independent contractor on a ‘for services’ basis. However, if the musician is engaged on a contract of service, the parish should note its legal responsibilities in relation to taxation, social welfare insurance, employer’s liability insurance, and health and safety.

It is also very helpful to have a common understanding between the clergy and musician regarding the choosing of music for the liturgy, fees for weddings and funerals, the use of the organ for teaching and so on.

It is appreciated that in some cases a local agreement exists whereby the church musician either accepts no payment or donates it back. While of enormous benefit to the parish, this generosity on the part of the musician distorts the cost of running the parish. It is recommended that in such cases the parish should pay the appropriate level of fee into a separate fund as, when the present musician leaves, it is probable that the successor will have to be paid. This procedure will establish a realistic payment level for the post and will avoid a sudden sizeable additional cost in the future.

The value of regular in-service training cannot be over-emphasised, especially in these times of changing liturgies and the wide variety of styles of music now used in our churches.

We suggest that clergy should be pro-active in drawing the attention of their musicians to opportunities for professional development. The annual summer school of the Irish

Church Music Association is an obvious course to consider and the Advisory Committee will be happy to suggest other appropriate courses to those seeking advice. See (h) under the heading ‘miscellaneous.

It is hoped that pastors will find these guidelines useful in determining an appropriate payment level. The Advisory Committee emphasises that it is essential that the value of music in the worship of the Church and the musician’s training, skill and commitment are realistically recognised in monetary terms.

GUIDELINES FOR FEES FOR CHURCH MUSICIANS – 2008

Normal weekly duties
Fee for 48 Sundays [see (b) below]
Band A One Mass/Service, no choir
€3,063
Band B One Mass/Service, choir with a Sunday rehearsal
€4,083*
Band C One Mass/Service, choir with a weekday rehearsal
€5,106*
Band D Two Masses/Services, no choir
€5,106*
Band E Two Masses/Services, choir with a Sunday rehearsal
€6,586*
Band F Two Masses/Services, choir with a weekday rehearsal
€7,964*
The amounts above are the minimum suggested fees in 2008 for trained and competent musicians who are willing to undertake appropriate in-service training. Factors such as level of qualifications, length of service, responsibility for a junior choir and the amount of administrative work involved should also be taken into consideration.

*These fees relate to a combined organist/choir director position. Where the positions are shared between two people as choir director and organist, it is suggested that each should receive at least 75% of the above fee with the implication that the total cost to the parish will be at least 50% higher than the rates above.

WEDDINGS AND FUNERALS

Where a church has an appointed organist it is normal practice to pay him/her the appropriate fee when the marriage couple/family wish to engage an organist of their choice. The implementation of this principle requires flexibility, so as to avoid misunderstanding and unfair criticism of musicians. It is recommended that each church should have a worked out policy in this matter, agreed in advance between clergy and musicians.

Weddings: The minimum suggested fee is €200, but should be higher when the musician is required for a rehearsal or when music has to be bought or learned.

Funerals: The minimum suggested fee is €110 for one service; €160 when music also is provided at a service in church on the eve of a funeral. Travelling expenses, 78c per km, may be paid where appropriate. (The Association of Funeral Directors has been informed of these rates.

MISCELLANEOUS

Fees should be reviewed annually by reference to pay inflation and national pay agreements.

Musicians should be entitled to at least four Sundays off each year and the parish should pay the deputy for those Sundays. The responsibility for finding a deputy is primarily that of the musician.

(c) Musicians should be allowed two Sundays sick leave in any one year, for which period the parish will meet the cost of a deputy.

(d) The minimum rate for deputy work is €69 for the first service on any day and €47 for each subsequent service

(e) A written contract should be entered into, outlining the terms, conditions and responsibilities attaching to the post and listing the occasions, including the festivals other than Sundays, for which the musician is required.
Additional payment should be made for duties over and above those set out in the contract.

(f) Church authorities should reimburse expenses incurred by musicians - such as choir music, postage and stationery -within an agreed budget.

(g) Church authorities should encourage and expect musicians to attend appropriate courses (in music, liturgy, theology, etc.) in Ireland and elsewhere at least once every three years and should contribute towards the cost, recognising the benefit accruing to both the parish and the musician from continuous professional development.

[festivaltrumpet]

The value of regular in-service training cannot be over-emphasised, especially in these times of changing liturgies and the wide variety of styles of music now used in our churches.
We suggest that clergy should be pro-active in drawing the attention of their musicians to opportunities for professional development.

(g) Church authorities should encourage and expect musicians to attend appropriate courses (in music, liturgy, theology, etc.) in Ireland and elsewhere at least once every three years and should contribute towards the cost, recognising the benefit accruing to both the parish and the musician from continuous professional development.

The above quoted parts of this document seem to be of immeasurable import. This is a declaration from the epsicopate pertaining to training and recognition of musicians as professionals. Has such a statement ever been made by the bishops of England? With the exception of the excellent work done by this venerable organisation, training and professional development for church musicians is simply not offered by the church.

[Psalm Project]

Well,
My first venture into further 'development' was a visit to Worth two years ago for the SSG Summer School! My church paid for this.
Now I have the joy of 'blogging' on the SSG forum... there is no Irish equivalent of that!!!

[manniemain]

One of the biggest problems we seem to face is that when an organist offers his services for nothing the Church (by which I mean his fellow parishioners) automatically assume that it is because he is worth nothing and treats and abuses him accordingly. I know of several organists who are Catholics and who can and do command substantial fees elsewhere. From those Churches they also receive respect and goodwill that is surely the due of any Christian from his fellows. As practicing Catholics these organists still attend a Sunday Mass at a time when they are not playing in Protestant churches but the Catholic organ often stays silent because as soon as they play it - even for free they are sitting targets for abuse, negative appraisal and unpleasantness. I know it grieves them not to be allowed to give freely to their own church what other churches will even pay for!

[musicus]

Welcome to the forum, festivaltrumpet!

(Where do we get these nicknames from?)

[Nick Baty]

Yes, welcome Mr Trumpet (or may I call you Festival?).
Have we met somewhere before?

[docmattc]

One of the biggest problems we seem to face is that when an organist offers his services for nothing the Church (by which I mean his fellow parishioners) automatically assume that it is because he is worth nothing and treats and abuses him accordingly.

I must admit that I've never experienced this from parishioners, only from clergy. I wonder whether it is, as we've discussed elsewhere, that singing is actually a fairly new concept in the Catholic Church (most had only the low Mass before the council) and is seen by some (eg my father) as an unnecessary addition which merely lengthens the Mass.

festivaltrumpet has a good point about training but our bishops have in fact said something about it, albeit not as directly:

The Church takes seriously the needs of the liturgy and responds to the lack of formation by providing training opportunities for pastoral musicians. Eucharistic Ministers and, increasingly, Readers, are given formal training courses. The ministry of the musician should receive the same attention.

Trouble is, these "formal training courses" are not given, which gives the lie to the opening sentence I've quoted. There is precious little evidence that the church in E&W does take liturgical music seriously. SSG is essentially the only organisation doing anything for the OF, but that's for another thread. Let's start a new one if we want to talk about formation, training etc.

[festivaltrumpet]

Welcome to the forum, festivaltrumpet!

(Where do we get these nicknames from?)

http://www.organstops.org is a useful source. Nazard and Contrabourdun seem to have visited well before I did.

[Angela Barber]

When I played the organ in an Anglican church the PPC insisted I was paid. This I refused as the parish was in dire financial straights but we compromised by me agreeing to take travel expenses which, although these were less than a fiver a week, made everyone happy. I drive just under 10 miles to church at least twice a week and, in the present financial climate, I certainly notice the pennies going out............Although I've been organist in my church for some years it has never been suggested that any remuneration should be paid, all part of the RC church's expectation that visiting the church, usually via one's car, for flower arranging, cleaning, etc.etc. should be for love alone.........weddings have dried up now so, apart from the odd funeral, the money pot is more than half empty. Perhaps if payment was involved some of the truly dreadful "organists" still around could be pensioned off ! Angela

[contrabordun]

...Nazard and Contrabourdun seem to have visited well before I did.

You're right. I used it to find a name when I started my own business, too... http://www.quintadena.com - which is nothing to do with music, but hey, the .com and Companies House reg. were both available.

[manniemain]

Perhaps if payment was involved some of the truly dreadful "organists" still around could be pensioned off ! Angela

These "truly dreadful organists" are a problem in their own right. By these I exclude those faithful bodies who give of their best but for whom playing in public is a real trial and costs them greatly in terms of practice and general anxiety. These folk are generally secure and competent but have to work hard to deliver this. They do it for love of the Church and of God.
The ones who are a worry are those who
1. Do not play even the simplest of hymns fluently
2. Whose musical skill and volume of playing are inversely proportional
3. Who are aggressive and bombastic about when, what and where they will play (generally more than less)

Sadly these "organists" are the ones who campaign most vigourously for no recognition for the rest of us. They will play weddings etc. for nothing because they are desperate to be "heard" even by a church full of strangers.There have been several instances when I have been undercut (no fee) by one of these organists who has subsequently ruined someone's wedding. I can quote the organist who took on a wedding engagement and having discussed and agreed the music subsequently played something different on the day because "I don't play those pieces because I don't like them" Even one of the hymns was changed with no warning. Afterwards "we wish we'd asked you" is no consolation for a missing fee for me and a trashed wedding service for the couple. If there was never a fee involved there is no handle over the miscreant and guess what - they pop up and do it again to another unsuspecting couple.
If an organist gives freely (literally) of his services on a Sunday surely it would be basic courtesy for the clergy to allow them first shout on the few paid engagements that come along. As mentioned in previous posts, other denominations go one further than this and actually pay the parish organist for weddings even if he isn't used. Wow.
I've already said that many of us won't take money from the Church for Sunday Mass (and much more besides) because we see it as ministry rather than work. This should never be used as an excuse for abuse and exploitation the rest of the time.