Vespers

[manniemain]

We generally sing Evening Prayer every six weeks or so - often if it is All Saints, Corpus Christi, Advent Sunday or the like. Up to now we've used Anglican Chant for the psalmody which has worked well but I've now been told that this is no longer appropriate and that we must use "Catholic" chant. In exasperation I'm tempted to set all the Psalms to "Go the Mass is ended" which is most certainly Catholic. Realistically though, can anyone recommend a good source of "permitted" chants we can use for vespers?

[contrabordun]

I've now been told that this is no longer appropriate and that we must use "Catholic" chant

1. by whom?
2. on what basis?
Sounds like sectarian b******t to me, unless you're singing the psalms in Latin in which case the resources are there alright.

I note from my researches into GIRM that there is no provision for hymnody at the conclusion of the Mass, so that there are no circumstances in which "Go the Mass is ended" can be sung in a Catholic Church

[manniemain]

I've now been told that this is no longer appropriate and that we must use "Catholic" chant

1. by whom?
2. on what basis?
Sounds like sectarian b******t to me, unless you're singing the psalms in Latin in which case the resources are there alright.

1. By Parish Priest
2.Because "we shouldn't"

We're just using the Psalms as printed in English in the Divine Office and frankly A.C. works really well but if we can no longer use it.....

[alan29]

Well you could use the traditional plainsong chants - the result is often not good because of the way that the stresses work in Latin and English.
Or Gelineau-type chants.
Alan

[contrabordun]

Well if that's the level of argument then I suggest "oh yes we should" would be a suitable response.
Joking apart, what reason could there possibly be not to use A.C., if it fits and it works for the participants? (IMO those are fairly big "if's" - but that's not the point at issue).

Does he likewise ban Wesley's/Luther's/Watts' hymns? Bach's organ music? Etc ad infinitum...

[manniemain]

Does he likewise ban Wesley's/Luther's/Watts' hymns? Bach's organ music? Etc ad infinitum...

I suspect its the word "Anglican" that is giving offence.

[docmattc]

This sounds a ridiculous request to me. The texts have to be approved, not the melodies. Without knowing the source, how many people can tell the denomination of a chant tone? Tell your PP that you will play the 'Catholic' chant when he provides them. (Or tell him you've found the new tunes and plough on regardless!)

[contrabordun]

I suspected the same thing. Oh well, just remind him he can't sing When I Survey next Holy Week.

I agree with docmattc.

Anyway, he should count himself lucky to have musicians of sufficient calibre to actually tackle A.C.

Now go and search Facebook and find and join the "anti slowing down before the barline in Anglican Chant" group.

[mcb]

I note from my researches into GIRM that there is no provision for hymnody at the conclusion of the Mass, so that there are no circumstances in which "Go the Mass is ended" can be sung in a Catholic Church

In the Ordinary Form, maybe. But according to these guidelines, Go the Mass is Ended is fine as a recessional at a Low Mass in the Extraordinary Form.

[mcb]

I'm with Mannie's PP, sort of. By and large I avoid Anglican chant - maybe we put one in once or twice a year. Why? Not because I've got anything against it; rather, it's always seems to me worthwhile to assert our Catholic identity, all else being equal.

This doesn't have to be backward looking - it's as much about ditching dreary Victorian hymnody and occasionally sticking in something cheesy from the St Louis Jesuits as it might be about restoring the treasures of the Gregorian chant repertoire. When I first took charge of the music at my establishment, I slung out a load of uninspired Anglican musical settings of the Communion Service, which had more or less been the staple before my time, and brought in settings of the Mass that were no more elevated in a musical sense. (They hit the spot from the point of view of actuosa participatio, but that's a different matter.)

One way of thinking about it is that within a thirty mile radius of my place of worship you'd no doubt find a couple of dozen Anglican churches making a good fist of the music. On the other hand, I can think of four Catholic churches within the same area where you might say the same thing. We could add to the number of churches where they sing Anglican chant, or John Blow, or Parry, or William Mathias, or whatever. Or we could aim to be a role model for Catholic churches and champion what we take to be the best of Catholic music, ancient and modern. Because if we don't, who's going to?

Is that sectarian? Sort of, I suppose, in a looking-after-one's-own-first kind of way. In any case there's no kind of music that's ruled out here, including not just the odd bit of Anglican chant, but Purcell's Thou knowest, Lord, Stanford's Beati Quorum, Rutter's For the Beauty of the Earth and lots more. And all the best hymn tunes.

M.

[contrabordun]

Well, we all know who has the best tunes.

One slight difference between MCB and Mannie's PP is that one of them can produce a reasoned argument to support a decision to take a particular path. That's fair enough: at the end of the day there are lots of valid possibilities for policies and you have to make a choice. What I find unfortunate is that the other knows what he doesn't want to do but (apparently) can't produce any reasoned argument or make a concrete alternative suggestion.

Now there are plenty of times when it's perfectly valid to say "X is wrong: we should not do X and I do not at this time have an alternative thing that we should do". But it seems reasonable that you should have to be able to explain why X is wrong.

[manniemain]

But according to these guidelines, Go the Mass is Ended is fine as a recessional at a Low Mass in the Extraordinary Form.

How low can you get??

[manniemain]

I'm with Mannie's PP, sort of. By and large I avoid Anglican chant - maybe we put one in once or twice a year. Why? Not because I've got anything against it; rather, it's always seems to me worthwhile to assert our Catholic identity, all else being equal.

.

Can you suggest anything we can use for sung Evening Prayer now that A.C. is not allowed in my Parish? Do many Parishes actually sing Evening Prayer regularly at all? I noted Alan's suggestions about Gelineau and about the Latin chants but the problem there would be (as he comments) using chants belonging to one idiom (Latin) with another (vernacular words) would lead to problems with stresses etc. The trouble with Gelineau (imho)is that they always sound "truncated" to me if done without their responses.

[docmattc]

[
Can you suggest anything we can use for sung Evening Prayer now that A.C. is not allowed in my Parish?

Do some of our monasteries pray the office n English? If so what do they use? I believe Worth pray in English, mostly using Dom Philip Gaisford's own melodies. Whether or not these are available more widely I couldn't say.

[Anne]

The Bernadine Cistercian sisters at Hyning Monastery in Lancashire sing their office in English - they have beautiful, simple psalm tones and use the Grail pslams. I don't know who wrote them or if they are widely available, but it would be worth asking