This is a whole new track, asb. I agree that what I am doing as O or MD takes definite concentration, with dignity and without disruption to the assembly, but I hope and pray that what I am doing to the best of my ability is my 'prayer,' and do not forgo receiving Holy Communion.
If I were in a cathedral situation maybe, but I think that giving my musical performance precedence over Communion to fulfill the instruction that music should begin then raises questions about any of the ministers exercising their functions. Is this what is demanded of us, that the choir may not receive?
Surely full participation in the Mass is better served by receiving Holy Communion at the end of the procession than by abstaining.
We did once have an organist who liked to go to another Mass to concentrate, but two Sunday Masses is a luxury not many family lives allow.
Organists and communion
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
VML wrote:Surely full participation in the Mass is better served by receiving Holy Communion at the end of the procession than by abstaining.
Paul Inwood's advice is to do just that, on the grounds that musicians are to some extent the hosts at the meal and should let others receive first. I've even known some priests receive after the congregation for the same reason.
In my church the music group always starts the Communion hymn after the "Lord I am not worthy" and the priest waits for us at the end, though sometimes we leave a verse or two out so as not to keep him waiting too long. Elsewhere I've known the musicians go up first, so there's quite a pause before the Communion hymn starts, but that often feels like a deliberate attempt to make it a thanksgiving hymn after Communion rather than a processional one.
At my church, choir and organ are at the back in a gallery. As soon as one person goes for communion, everyone follows. If I go to communion first, even if I don't receive the Precious Blood, by the time I get back to the organ half the congregation will have communicated in an unedifying shuffling silence. I have experienced this in the congregation at various places when on holiday, and it is unedifying
Our PP prefers the Communion hymn to start as the last few are receiving - which means it is neither a Communion hymn or a Thanksgiving hymn. Therefore, I cannot receive at the end as the hymn basically "covers" the Ablutions.
As far as I am concerned, I am there as a (I actuallyhate the term with a vengeance - the reason for which is a long story) "Minister Of Music" and this takes precedence over personal devotions.
Our PP prefers the Communion hymn to start as the last few are receiving - which means it is neither a Communion hymn or a Thanksgiving hymn. Therefore, I cannot receive at the end as the hymn basically "covers" the Ablutions.
As far as I am concerned, I am there as a (I actuallyhate the term with a vengeance - the reason for which is a long story) "Minister Of Music" and this takes precedence over personal devotions.
Last edited by asb on Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paying an organist
Most interesting to see all the responses to the original question. I recently had occasion to think seriously about this myself, and to my surprise I found I had very mixed feelings.
In favour of payment: (1) All the arguments put forward here about remuneration for hard skilled work (2) Envy at the resources available to my Anglican competitors in the Ribble Valley - paid choirmasters, organists, budget for music, special choir rooms, special organ fund. Financial constraints mean this usually is not available. In the face of such 'plenty' it seems amazing that Catholic parishes achieve so much with so little.
Causes for hesitation: I remember 30 years ago how the paid organist at the local Anglican church in my parents home village in Bucks had an absolute 'lock' on what music was put on there, despite the fact that he was of mediocre competence and his tastes were out of touch with what his congregation and, for that matter, the village community preferred. This was precisely because he was paid and had a fixed contract. In essence then, if you have a paid MD/choirmaster/Organist that person will feel morally bound to produce the music he/she imagines they are contracted to provide and - surprise, surprise - that will coincide with their musical tastes. It also means that the MD will, by definition, tend to exclude any other volunteer who comes along who could run the show on say, certain sundays of the week. In other words, the opportunity for a variety of different musics provided by a talented 'team' of MDs/organists etc is greatly reduced.
In addition, a salaried MD by definition has an ambivalent relationship with the other musicians if they are volunteers. A volunteer cannot, in the end, be dictated to in the way that a paid musician can. Because they are volunteers they have the right to be consulted about what music should be performed and how it is done. The MD/organist then is in a collaborative association with such volunteers. He/she therefore is caught between the feeling that he/she is being paid and contractually required to produce something and the fact that, in the end, his/her volunteers have to be consulted as equals. If the MD/organist is not paid, then such tensions are reduced because everyone is in the same collaborative 'boat'.
This was brought home to me very forcefully during a row at a rehearsal of a local Concert Band. The conductor - who was paid - made his band spend 30 minutes practicing scales in unison. The band consisted of volunteers, and one refused to join in. He was then told to leave because the conductor felt that his authority was on the line and that he was 'required' to raise the band's standards. As a result the band nearly lost a key alto saxophonist and the next week the pattern was repeated with the 2nd trumpet. In other words the conductor forgot that the volunteers who came along were not paid professionals and did not just come along to play music to the highest standards but to have some fun and a bit of socialising.
Thomas Muir
In favour of payment: (1) All the arguments put forward here about remuneration for hard skilled work (2) Envy at the resources available to my Anglican competitors in the Ribble Valley - paid choirmasters, organists, budget for music, special choir rooms, special organ fund. Financial constraints mean this usually is not available. In the face of such 'plenty' it seems amazing that Catholic parishes achieve so much with so little.
Causes for hesitation: I remember 30 years ago how the paid organist at the local Anglican church in my parents home village in Bucks had an absolute 'lock' on what music was put on there, despite the fact that he was of mediocre competence and his tastes were out of touch with what his congregation and, for that matter, the village community preferred. This was precisely because he was paid and had a fixed contract. In essence then, if you have a paid MD/choirmaster/Organist that person will feel morally bound to produce the music he/she imagines they are contracted to provide and - surprise, surprise - that will coincide with their musical tastes. It also means that the MD will, by definition, tend to exclude any other volunteer who comes along who could run the show on say, certain sundays of the week. In other words, the opportunity for a variety of different musics provided by a talented 'team' of MDs/organists etc is greatly reduced.
In addition, a salaried MD by definition has an ambivalent relationship with the other musicians if they are volunteers. A volunteer cannot, in the end, be dictated to in the way that a paid musician can. Because they are volunteers they have the right to be consulted about what music should be performed and how it is done. The MD/organist then is in a collaborative association with such volunteers. He/she therefore is caught between the feeling that he/she is being paid and contractually required to produce something and the fact that, in the end, his/her volunteers have to be consulted as equals. If the MD/organist is not paid, then such tensions are reduced because everyone is in the same collaborative 'boat'.
This was brought home to me very forcefully during a row at a rehearsal of a local Concert Band. The conductor - who was paid - made his band spend 30 minutes practicing scales in unison. The band consisted of volunteers, and one refused to join in. He was then told to leave because the conductor felt that his authority was on the line and that he was 'required' to raise the band's standards. As a result the band nearly lost a key alto saxophonist and the next week the pattern was repeated with the 2nd trumpet. In other words the conductor forgot that the volunteers who came along were not paid professionals and did not just come along to play music to the highest standards but to have some fun and a bit of socialising.
Thomas Muir
T.E.Muir
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Nick Baty
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Re: Paying an organist
As usual, an interesting and considered reply from Thomas. One always gets the impression he really thinks about what he's writing. I, on the other hand, have a couple of Scotches and dive in – brain disengaged! However, it's now lunchtime and I'm having a coffee...
That seems an odd situation. Surely the payer was entitles to call the tune of this particular piper.
As for the local concert band conductor, I suspect he just had poor teaching/communication skills. All my students are volunteers – if I don't engage with them they won't turn up, exam results will be poor and I'll be kicked where Fr Ted kicked Bishop Brennan!
dmu3tem wrote:... 30 years ago how the paid organist at the local Anglican church ... had an absolute 'lock' on what music was put on there ... this was precisely because he was paid and had a fixed contract.
That seems an odd situation. Surely the payer was entitles to call the tune of this particular piper.
As for the local concert band conductor, I suspect he just had poor teaching/communication skills. All my students are volunteers – if I don't engage with them they won't turn up, exam results will be poor and I'll be kicked where Fr Ted kicked Bishop Brennan!
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oopsorganist
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thread
Is the other end of being paid that you could be fined it is is really bad? If so I would owe the parish money for being allowed to torment the organ so badly!
uh oh!
Re: Paying an organist
Nick Baty wrote:That seems an odd situation. Surely the payer was entitles to call the tune of this particular piper.
In theory, yes, but only if the payer has a clear idea what he wants the piper to play. In most churches I know, the music is decided by the people playing it and I suspect that may be the case in many if not most others. Would any other organists like to comment: are you given free range to choose music or are you told what to play?
In my own church I'm part of a music group, which is, in Thomas's words, a "collaborative association [of] volunteers", most of whom have been playing in it for many years, one indeed all her life. They are members of the congregation, aware of its traditions and making their contributions to the liturgy as lay members of that community just as readers and Eucharistic ministers do (only more frequently). After many years of playing with volunteer organists and then a few years of managing without one, we have recently acquired another volunteer organist, who is also happy to work with the rest of the music group as an equal member. I prepare the service sheets and decide the hymns each week, though within guidelines established by tradition and by the Liturgy Committee and listening to suggestions from the congregation and music group. I also arrange the music and supply the group with parts to play. A suggestion was made a few years ago that the parish could pay for an organist: had they done so, the dynamic of the group would have altered drastically. It is likely that the amateur members of the music group would have felt insulted and unappreciated and I don't know how the professional organist would have felt about being asked to play music chosen, arranged or even composed by an amateur.
Because I am busy with the music my own church, it is a very long time since I attended Sunday Mass at the nearby Cathedral, where, if I understand correctly, the musical director and organist are both paid and the former at least is Anglican. However, I do see their lists of music, which strike me as mostly unexciting and sometimes inappropriate or even downright bizarre. "Gifts of Bread and Wine", "Sweet Sacrament Divine", "O Bread of Heaven" and "Soul of my Saviour" have all been used at the Presentation of Gifts even though the texts clearly apply not to bread and wine per se but to the Blessed Sacrament after Consecration. I find it hard to believe that the organist and MD were directed to choose these hymns by the priest who pays them (though I have known elsewhere a priest who insisted that "Gifts of Bread and Wine" was an Offertory hymn - presumably he had read the title but not the text!).
I am also informed that Mass at the Cathedral generally concludes with an organ voluntary, applauded (!) by a coterie of enthusiasts gathered around the console but resented by some people in the main body of the Cathedral, who find the volume excessive, making both conversation and prayer impossible. According to my informant, complaints have been made to the priest in charge but no action taken, presumably because the organist, though technically a paid employee, is too important a person to upset.
Nick's suggestion works if the paid organist is directed by a priest (or committee) with a keen sense of liturgy and the needs of the congregation. In practice, though, liturgical preparation is a time-consuming process and priests are busy, so having engaged professional musicians they are likely to assume they have a "professional" knowledge of liturgy and delegate (or even abdicate) the choice of music to them, in which case the situation described by Thomas can easily arise. Of course, as we've seen on other threads, you can also find the opposite extreme: an organist (amateur or professional) dictated to by a PP + vox pop with no sense of liturgy!
Re:
docmattc wrote:asb wrote: For example, my reading of GIRM is that the music during Communion should start immediately after "Lord, I am not worthy..." That means that I cannot receive communion.
But GIRM also says something about making sure there is provision for the musicians to receive too. I think its even in the same paragraph.
How? At my church, choir and organ are in gallery at the back. Choir go to Communion before congregation while I play a voluntary. When they get back we sing the hymn or whatever, followed if necessary by improvisation until congregation have received. Priest then returns to altar, Extraordinary Ministers carry out ablutions. No time for me to go.....................
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Nick Baty
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Re: Paying an organist
No. Musicians receive last. Or, as we often do, choir mingle in with communion procession to help the singing then just the cantor and the organist go at the end.
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gwyn
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Re: Paying an organist
ASB wrote
They might like to research this.
Resist the temptation to stuff every corner of the communion reception full with wall-to-wall music. Begin your Communion Song/hymn/motet as the celebrant drinks the Precous Blood, then, when the communion procession is down to the last half a nave full, choir joins them, you yourself twiddle as they descend the stairs, receving Our Blessed Lord lat of all.
Works here in Sunny Abergavenny, we're in a west gallery too. I'm never comfy with choirs receiving holy communion before everyone else.
Extraordinary Ministers carry out ablutions.
They might like to research this.
At my church, choir and organ are in gallery at the back. Choir go to Communion before congregation while I play a voluntary. When they get back we sing the hymn or whatever, followed if necessary by improvisation until congregation have received. Priest then returns to altar, Extraordinary Ministers carry out ablutions. No time for me to go.....................
Resist the temptation to stuff every corner of the communion reception full with wall-to-wall music. Begin your Communion Song/hymn/motet as the celebrant drinks the Precous Blood, then, when the communion procession is down to the last half a nave full, choir joins them, you yourself twiddle as they descend the stairs, receving Our Blessed Lord lat of all.
Works here in Sunny Abergavenny, we're in a west gallery too. I'm never comfy with choirs receiving holy communion before everyone else.
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pirate
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Re:
Once upon a time, in a parish far, far away, on big occasions two of the EMs of HC used to come up to the choir gallery so the choir didn't have to fight their way through the crowds and the music could begin quite quickly, if the organist was at the front of the 'queue'.
In the same parish when there were two pianists in the music group' they could be a sort of 'relay team', with a single piece of music running right through the Communion procession and both musicians being fed at the table of the Lord...
In a later parish) we sometimes used to plan for unaccompanied singing at Communion, for all or part of the time, so the organist wasn't trapped at a console unable to join the procession. One of the men in this choir used to like time for a short personal prayer after receiving Communion, that being the way he'd been brought up, so sometimes it would be a piece of Taizé music so that people could join in when they felt comfortable. If we would be singing throughout the procession I'd let him know in advance but plan for some silence afterwards. This was usually sabotaged by the priest, bursting out with the post-Communion prayer (or even, help, the notices) before the EMs had left the sanctuary. Grrrr.
Mr Bear, we're way off topic - it is worth a split-off thread?
In the same parish when there were two pianists in the music group' they could be a sort of 'relay team', with a single piece of music running right through the Communion procession and both musicians being fed at the table of the Lord...
In a later parish) we sometimes used to plan for unaccompanied singing at Communion, for all or part of the time, so the organist wasn't trapped at a console unable to join the procession. One of the men in this choir used to like time for a short personal prayer after receiving Communion, that being the way he'd been brought up, so sometimes it would be a piece of Taizé music so that people could join in when they felt comfortable. If we would be singing throughout the procession I'd let him know in advance but plan for some silence afterwards. This was usually sabotaged by the priest, bursting out with the post-Communion prayer (or even, help, the notices) before the EMs had left the sanctuary. Grrrr.
Mr Bear, we're way off topic - it is worth a split-off thread?
Re: Paying an organist
Gwyn wrote:ASB wroteExtraordinary Ministers carry out ablutions.
They might like to research this.At my church, choir and organ are in gallery at the back. Choir go to Communion before congregation while I play a voluntary. When they get back we sing the hymn or whatever, followed if necessary by improvisation until congregation have received. Priest then returns to altar, Extraordinary Ministers carry out ablutions. No time for me to go.....................
Resist the temptation to stuff every corner of the communion reception full with wall-to-wall music. Begin your Communion Song/hymn/motet as the celebrant drinks the Precous Blood, then, when the communion procession is down to the last half a nave full, choir joins them, you yourself twiddle as they descend the stairs, receving Our Blessed Lord lat of all.
Works here in Sunny Abergavenny, we're in a west gallery too. I'm never comfy with choirs receiving holy communion before everyone else.
Problem is, PP likes the hymn/whatever to begin as the last few of the congregation go forward - hence the choir going first. If I went with the choir, there would be an awful "shuffling" hiatus before the music started.
Re: Re:
pirate wrote:Once upon a time, in a parish far, far away, on big occasions two of the EMs of HC used to come up to the choir gallery so the choir didn't have to fight their way through the crowds and the music could begin quite quickly, if the organist was at the front of the 'queue'.
In the same parish when there were two pianists in the music group' they could be a sort of 'relay team', with a single piece of music running right through the Communion procession and both musicians being fed at the table of the Lord...
In a later parish) we sometimes used to plan for unaccompanied singing at Communion, for all or part of the time, so the organist wasn't trapped at a console unable to join the procession. One of the men in this choir used to like time for a short personal prayer after receiving Communion, that being the way he'd been brought up, so sometimes it would be a piece of Taizé music so that people could join in when they felt comfortable. If we would be singing throughout the procession I'd let him know in advance but plan for some silence afterwards. This was usually sabotaged by the priest, bursting out with the post-Communion prayer (or even, help, the notices) before the EMs had left the sanctuary. Grrrr.
Mr Bear, we're way off topic - it is worth a split-off thread?
I have suggested the EM's coming to the gallery, but PP won't have it - and at least one choir member will only receive the Body of Christ from a Priest or Deacon.
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docmattc
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Re: Organists and communion
Last summer whilst our church was closed for reroofing we had Mass in the hall with chairs laid out in choir formation. The choir sat in a block together but were actually within the congregation so went to communion along with them. I always chose repetitive stuff, mostly Taize for Communion which meant I could sit at the piano and play and then join the procession, leaving the singing a cappella, picking it back up on my return. When we were seated in that layout it worked well.