Pipes versus digital

[Psalm Project]

Thanks for the welcome!
The Pipes vs. Digital argument has been on the go for many years.
As a professional organist, it has always been a bone of contention to arrive at a digital that is simply landed on the floor without any voicing or matching to the building.
There are dealers who make their own external speakers from materials which are cheaply available and sub standard. The particular type of speakers required for organ externals are considerably different from PA or HiFi speakers. One area which if frequently skimped on is external speakers. Many dealers suggest they can be added later - which is literally true!!!
However, I believe they should be mandatory. Another issue with digitals which irks me is the area of expression pedals. For years, Allen (sorry if I offend Allen disciples) provided only one expression pedal for the entire organ volume. I firmly believe no digital should have great and pedals under expression. They should be set up properly from the word go. The 'one pedal' overall volume type expression pedal invariably leads to an extremely timid style of playing (usually in the hope that mistakes are not as obvious!!!). Some modern organs have a switch facility to 'unexpress' the great and pedals.
Any time I have worked with experienced and professional soloists with digital organs, they have almost invariably been disappointing. However, there are many situations where basic instruments are accepted and used effictively - this I accept. However, that does not necessarily make them good.
My bias is always towards pipe organs. However, I have endured many atrocious examples of such. Some are only fit for the bin. Not every pipe organ is worth retaining. a sense of balance must be struck.
Anyone wish to feed into the issue of pressurised heating systems and pipe organs?

[asb]

Thanks for the welcome!
The Pipes vs. Digital argument has been on the go for many years.
As a professional organist, it has always been a bone of contention to arrive at a digital that is simply landed on the floor without any voicing or matching to the building.
There are dealers who make their own external speakers from materials which are cheaply available and sub standard. The particular type of speakers required for organ externals are considerably different from PA or HiFi speakers. One area which if frequently skimped on is external speakers. Many dealers suggest they can be added later - which is literally true!!!
However, I believe they should be mandatory. Another issue with digitals which irks me is the area of expression pedals. For years, Allen (sorry if I offend Allen disciples) provided only one expression pedal for the entire organ volume. I firmly believe no digital should have great and pedals under expression. They should be set up properly from the word go. The 'one pedal' overall volume type expression pedal invariably leads to an extremely timid style of playing (usually in the hope that mistakes are not as obvious!!!). Some modern organs have a switch facility to 'unexpress' the great and pedals.
Any time I have worked with experienced and professional soloists with digital organs, they have almost invariably been disappointing. However, there are many situations where basic instruments are accepted and used effictively - this I accept. However, that does not necessarily make them good.
My bias is always towards pipe organs. However, I have endured many atrocious examples of such. Some are only fit for the bin. Not every pipe organ is worth retaining. a sense of balance must be struck.
Anyone wish to feed into the issue of pressurised heating systems and pipe organs?

I agree on the expression pedals issue. Our previous organ had one for the Gt/Ped and was the only means of adjusting those departments. To accompany an average congregation without deafening those near the organ (no external speakers) meant closing the great "box" by about 2/3. However, for a trumpet or flute sol, you had to open it wide, which increased the pedal volume too, so it was a constant juggling act. Our new one just has a swell pedal, the gt/ped are unenclosed just like a pipe organ, with each stop voiced and volume-adjusted accordingly.
Yes, the previous organ was literally put in place and I was left to get on with it as best I could. The new one was professionally installed taking a whole day, and Jeremy Meager is coming back personally tomorrow to "tweak" the voicing in the light of my comments after the 1st few weeks of use.

[Southern Comfort]

asb is rather modestly not letting on that Jeremy Meager is the new managing director of Viscount, and that they are trying very hard to undo some of the problems that have arisen in the past because they subcontracted their installations to agents, some of whom were very good and some of whom were terrible. Viscount have now cancelled all these franchises and have taken everything back in house, as of just a few months ago. They now do all their own installations (Jeremy himself, who is a professional organist, is involved in many of them) and do customize instruments to the particular building and client's needs. Viscount are no longer off-the-peg. If they have a weak point, it may be in the quality of the speakers they are using - time will tell whether one or two examples I have seen recently are typical. (Of course, it could be that the client did not want to pay more for better speakers.)

On psalm project's other point, pressurised heating systems should be banned. They are death to a pipe organ, drying out the humidity in the building, and providing layers of air at different temperatures so that different divisions of an organ can never be in tune with each other. The worst culprit used to be a firm called Crolla - don't know if they still exist. Probably best to say no more than that. The IBO has a paper which makes it clear that forced-air heating systems are inimical to organs. Actually they're inimical to congregations, too, for reasons which would take too long to go into here. Avoid them at all costs.

[asb]

asb is rather modestly not letting on that Jeremy Meager is the new managing director of Viscount, and that they are trying very hard to undo some of the problems that have arisen in the past because they subcontracted their installations to agents, some of whom were very good and some of whom were terrible. Viscount have now cancelled all these franchises and have taken everything back in house, as of just a few months ago. They now do all their own installations (Jeremy himself, who is a professional organist, is involved in many of them) and do customize instruments to the particular building and client's needs. Viscount are no longer off-the-peg. If they have a weak point, it may be in the quality of the speakers they are using - time will tell whether one or two examples I have seen recently are typical. (Of course, it could be that the client did not want to pay more for better speakers.)

Our speakers are fine, and Jeremy hit on the perfect location in an acoustically difficult, although not large, building.

[Psalm Project]

Well folks,
I've just come back from Preston, having been to see a very large four manual and pedal with 22 channels of audio... PHOENIX installation. Mind blowing!
Beautiful console by Renatus - solid oak - beautiful pedalboard!
Solid Oak throughout - Oak framed, glass panel front doors.
Also visited Makin... sounds quite good but the pedalboards and other hardware issues are not up to it! the older ones were better built.
The four-decker Phoenix would would cost one quarter the restoration cost of our heating-destroyed pipe organ (only to give us a 15 stop untunable organ - due to the pressurised heating system)... Which would I choose? It's a no-brainer!
I must say I was more than pleasantly surprised.

[manniemain]

Just to give an example of the point Nazard was making.... Our organ here in Buckie came from Fort Augustus Abbey and is a 3 manual 1970s R&D rebuild using largely Victorian Bryceson pipework. It cost us £5,000 in 1999. Installing the organ (including an update of the relays with solid state) came to another £70,000+ This could never have been justified in a world where people are starving except that it was a legacy that couldn't be spent on anything else. If anyone is in the area and would like a "shottie" on it, they are most welcome to contact me either through the Church (St. Peter's - Buckie) or through this blog.

[Southern Comfort]

Just to give an example of the point Nazard was making....

It would have been very helpful to have a quote to show what Nazard actually said, rather than having to scroll back through the entire thread to find the points made on the first page. <Netiquette rant off>

[musicus]

Just to give an example of the point Nazard was making....

It would have been very helpful to have a quote to show what Nazard actually said, rather than having to scroll back through the entire thread to find the points made on the first page. <Netiquette rant off>

Aw! Be nice. S/he's new here. (Fair point, though.)

[manniemain]

Just to give an example of the point Nazard was making....

It would have been very helpful to have a quote to show what Nazard actually said, rather than having to scroll back through the entire thread to find the points made on the first page. <Netiquette rant off>

Sorry about that. I'm afraid I've not used a blog before and I didn't do the quote thing properly which is why it didn't work for me. You're quite right that it is annoying to have to scroll to find quotes but it was a competence issue rather than a Netiquette one, in that I really intended no offense. As you can see, there is a learning curve in operation here and I have now managed to work the quote function correctly. (Thanks by the way, Musicus - I'm getting there!)

[Southern Comfort]

Welcome to the forum, by the way, manniemain, and excuse me for leaving an exclamation mark off the end of my post - which might have indicated that the annoyance was not real. Musicus, do we have an emoticon for tongue-in-cheek? Is it this one: ? (Every forum seems to have a different set...)

[musicus]

Welcome to the forum, by the way, manniemain, and excuse me for leaving an exclamation mark off the end of my post - which might have indicated that the annoyance was not real. Musicus, do we have an emoticon for tongue-in-cheek? Is it this one: ? (Every forum seems to have a different set...)

Yes - that'll do nicely.

[manniemain]

There are many situations in which a sampled digital electronic can be a better solution than a pipe organ. Many of the continuo pipe organs that have been installed in RC churches in recent decades in pursuit of one particular consultant's ideology are unsuited for today's liturgical requirements..

Thanks for the welcome! Given a pipe organ and a digi of similar size, I would always prefer the pipe organ because nothing can approach it in terms of sheer character. Some of this is due to the doppler effect (is that the correct term?) created by many pipes throwing the sound round the building. However you make the point here that many RC Churches have (and by no means just recently) installed pipe organs that are fine for accompanying a choir or playing a continuo part but are not up to the job of leading congregational singing. Typically, such an organ has to be registered so "lavishly" to achieve suitable volume that a jarring, if not shrieking quality is inevitable which inspires nobody to sing. When the installation brief has insisted on pipes the result is often an instrument that is beautiful but too small.

Another interesting point is that the economics are by no means simple. A digi can be bought, taken to the church and plugged in for a fraction of the cost of equivalent specification pipes, but the sound will be at the distressing end of disappointing! If the digi is properly installed with an appropriate speaker system and individual channels adjusted to the acoustics of the building then the cost difference narrows considerably. Similarly, whilst a digi organ won't have the maintenance burden of a pipe organ, it won't have the longevity either.

[asb]

There are many situations in which a sampled digital electronic can be a better solution than a pipe organ. Many of the continuo pipe organs that have been installed in RC churches in recent decades in pursuit of one particular consultant's ideology are unsuited for today's liturgical requirements..

Thanks for the welcome! Given a pipe organ and a digi of similar size, I would always prefer the pipe organ because nothing can approach it in terms of sheer character. Some of this is due to the doppler effect (is that the correct term?) created by many pipes throwing the sound round the building. However you make the point here that many RC Churches have (and by no means just recently) installed pipe organs that are fine for accompanying a choir or playing a continuo part but are not up to the job of leading congregational singing. Typically, such an organ has to be registered so "lavishly" to achieve suitable volume that a jarring, if not shrieking quality is inevitable which inspires nobody to sing. When the installation brief has insisted on pipes the result is often an instrument that is beautiful but too small.

Another interesting point is that the economics are by no means simple. A digi can be bought, taken to the church and plugged in for a fraction of the cost of equivalent specification pipes, but the sound will be at the distressing end of disappointing! If the digi is properly installed with an appropriate speaker system and individual channels adjusted to the acoustics of the building then the cost difference narrows considerably. Similarly, whilst a digi organ won't have the maintenance burden of a pipe organ, it won't have the longevity either.

I believe that most "bespoke" digitals can now have their software / voicing updated, and obviously things like keyboards and stop actions can be renewed, so I think the "longevity" issue is a thing of the past.

[mcb]

Some of this is due to the doppler effect (is that the correct term?) created by many pipes throwing the sound round the building.

The Doppler effect is what you get when an ambulance rushes past and the perceived pitch of the siren falls (the wavelength increases relative to the position of the listener. Or something.) Not sure you'd find that in your typical church context. Unless the organ was on wheels, or the offertory procession was unusually nippy.

So what effect are you getting at, Mannie - what can pipes do with the sound that speakers can't?

[manniemain]

Yes - I suppose "doppler" is a bit inaccurate. What I really mean, I imagine, is the non-directional quality of pipes. Even a dozen or so speakers can't compete in "directionless" terms with a couple of thousand pipes all squirting sound in marginally different directions. Whether or not the advantage of this is sufficient to justify the "mark up" of pipes and whether this is the best use of church funds is debatable. (which is why we still debate it!) I still can't make my mind up to be frank!
Your remark about nippy processions caused me a few pleasant reflections