Pipes versus digital

[asb]

Picking up on the previous posting, the same could surely be said of a Diapason 8 on two diferent pipe organs. I can think of 2 pipe organs near me; on one, the great Diapason 8 sounds fine on its own, eg for a Stanley slow movement, whereas on the other the same stop is too "woolly" and indistinct, and a compromise has to be made. Admittedly, on many earlier digitals, the 8' Diapason on its own was very often a weak point.

My own church have just invested in one of the latest digitals, and even the congregation are staggered by its realism compared to the previous one.

Surely, a good digital organ can do the same job as a pipe organ, given suitable amplification and speakers. Indeed, in terms of both sound quality, range of stops (allowing authentic registration of much repertoire as well as its bread and butter accompanimental role) and ease of handling, I would not swap our new digital for any local pipe organ.

I do not wish to infringe anything by "advertising" the provinence of our new organ here, but if anyone is interested please PM me.

[Southern Comfort]

There are many situations in which a sampled digital electronic can be a better solution than a pipe organ. Many of the continuo pipe organs that have been installed in RC churches in recent decades in pursuit of one particular consultant's ideology are unsuited for today's liturgical requirements. Some would be more trenchant than this in voicing this opinion (so would I after a few drinks!).

But let's not delude ourselves. However good digital electronics may be (and there are some excellent ones around as well as some mediocre ones), the fact remains that the sound characteristics produced by columns of air vibrating in pipes on soundboards are very different from those produced by vibrating loudspeaker cones. The very best digital instruments will always be nothing more than a top CD recording of a pipe organ on an excellent hifi system - in other words, very good but not quite the same.

[asb]

There are many situations in which a sampled digital electronic can be a better solution than a pipe organ. Many of the continuo pipe organs that have been installed in RC churches in recent decades in pursuit of one particular consultant's ideology are unsuited for today's liturgical requirements. Some would be more trenchant than this in voicing this opinion (so would I after a few drinks!).

But let's not delude ourselves. However good digital electronics may be (and there are some excellent ones around as well as some mediocre ones), the fact remains that the sound characteristics produced by columns of air vibrating in pipes on soundboards are very different from those produced by vibrating loudspeaker cones. The very best digital instruments will always be nothing more than a top CD recording of a pipe organ on an excellent hifi system - in other words, very good but not quite the same.

Agreed. And I've often wondered how a (3 stop, by any chance?) continuo organ, copes with congregational accompaniment.

[RobH]

I have yet to hear a digital which has a realistic Open Diapason 8 on it. Am I the only person on this thread who is sticking up for the Pipe organ? Is my church the only Catholic church which still has a pipe organ and has not 'invested' in a digital. If so, I am really thankful as our organ is more than adequate for the liturgy and sounds good even in a small building with not too good acoustics.

In my experience working with pipe organs Anglicans seem to hold their pipe organs in far higher esteem than do Catholics. Over the years I have seen more Catholic churches chuck out their pipe organ than Anglicans, who often try to keep theirs goings against all odds. Is that why, musically, their larger churches are often superior to ours? Now I will get some criticism! Having said that, I have seen a few pipe organs installed in Catholic churches, usually because of the enthusiasm of an individual and in all cases they have been a minor triumph, usually replacing electronics.

[asb]

I have yet to hear a digital which has a realistic Open Diapason 8 on it.

That doesn't mean that they don't exist! PM me and arrange to come and try!

If we had room for, and funds for pipes, pipes it would be - naturally. We have neiher space nor money, but we now have a damned good organ!

[asb]

I have yet to hear a digital which has a realistic Open Diapason 8 on it. Am I the only person on this thread who is sticking up for the Pipe organ? Is my church the only Catholic church which still has a pipe organ and has not 'invested' in a digital. If so, I am really thankful as our organ is more than adequate for the liturgy and sounds good even in a small building with not too good acoustics.

In my experience working with pipe organs Anglicans seem to hold their pipe organs in far higher esteem than do Catholics. Over the years I have seen more Catholic churches chuck out their pipe organ than Anglicans, who often try to keep theirs goings against all odds. Is that why, musically, their larger churches are often superior to ours? Now I will get some criticism! Having said that, I have seen a few pipe organs installed in Catholic churches, usually because of the enthusiasm of an individual and in all cases they have been a minor triumph, usually replacing electronics.

I must point out that my church (Catholic) has never had a pipe organ. Since being built in 1935 it has had, in order, a Harmonium, an early electronic, an early "sampled sound" digital, and now the latest sampled sound digital.

I know a local Anglican church witha pipe organ that is far too small for the building. I often play there for funerals and it is a job to keep a congrgeation together. We may "only" have a digital instrument, but, by 'eck it does its job well!

[organist]

In my former parish we replaced a pipe organ with a 3 manual digital by Cathedral organs which had everything and more one could want including a proper console with drawstops, 10 different temperaments, loads of stops. And it really did sound like a pipe organ too because it had lots of speakers properly positioned and enough channels. This was a very carefully considered decision involving hours of visiting other churches and proper advice. The main consideration was where the console and choir should be situated. And the position they were moved to (to the side of the sanctuary) was far superior to being in a back gallery. The 50 year old musical tradition of this parish was destroyed by one priest.
I now play a fine 2 manual Hill restored by Peter Collins and Vincent Coggin in an Anglican parish which raised the £20,000 needed because they value music and musicians.

[Ros Wood]

What are the choices when you have a one manual pipe organ with no swell and the pedal board has been takene away to be treated for woodworm!

[RobH]

Ah, well you have to be very inventive. Depending on your stop list, it is amazing what you can coax out of even a small one-manual organ. RobH

[Psalm Project]

May I offer a perspective...

I am an organist and choir director in a large suburban church on the outskirts of Cork City (Ireland). I have been doing this for over thirty years. I am also an active composer of liturgical and sacred music.
This argument of digital versus pipe has always intrigued me. Firstly, let's quell the argument by saying that any comparison is unrealistic. They are uniquely different instruments, albeit similar in function. Great! That's that out of the way! Secondly, If pipe organs were not so good in the first instance, digital manufacturers would not be as enthusiastic to emulate them! As is said 'imitation is the best form of flattery'

I approach this argument as one having spent eight years of my early music career working in the field of pipe organs and subsequently selling Makin and Johannus digitals; the latter part of my career ceasing about ten years ago. I completed an M.Sc in Music technology with a special interest in pipe sampling and recording techniques - all of that for another discussion!

I am presently in an interesting situation. A 15 stop pipe organ was installed in my church 28 years ago - It came from a convent - probably unsuited due to its small size (Our large parish church seats 1,100 and has a very large dome!)
It was in a rear gallery and its voice was pushed almost to the point of screeching. There was no choice - it was too small otherwise. However, it did its job reasonably well accompanying the choir etc. It was reasonable but not particularly musical.
From one perspective, it was an admirable project - those responsible for the project at the time felt a pipe organ was the best route. Perhaps the necessary advice was not as available as it is now. Many second-hand parts were used in the rebuild - It has electric action.
Down through the years things began to stop working - the present situation is that most of the pedals don't work - I need them badly!
Where is this leading...?
Three years ago we had a new efficient heating system (Air pressure) installed - It wrecked the organ. One night, the system was left running and the heat split nearly every wooden component of the organ - one-inch splits in both bellows - sliders cracked etc.
Quotations from organ builders are prohibitive - One builder has declined for several reasons.
The interesting situation we now have, however, it that we are in a situation where it may not be possible to install ANY pipe organ - The heating system precludes such. It would be impossible to keep in tune due to the temperature swings.
I have done much research in the past couple of years and now feel that digital is the most realistic way forward.
I am only considering one builder - I use that word carefully. PHOENIX. I do not subscribe to the camp that implies 'one size fits all' - like many of the Viscount / Allen et al. If it has a 'Model' number it is going to come in a box!!!
I want to give many hours to the design of this organ. I want it designed and built for our church - I don't want something dropped on the floor by a piano salesman who knows nothing about organs - I don't want internal speakers only... By the way... Internal speakers are a total waste of time. And, for those of you inclined towards litigation in current times, they are tinnitus inducing! Yes, you heard me (or maybe not!)
Phoenix is UK-Based. Their prices are very competitive and their backup is second to none.
Our pipe organ would cost in the region of EUR150.000.00 to restore - only to bring us back to a 15 stop undersized organ. For less than a third of that price we can get a three manual drawstop custom-built organ with sixteen channels of sound - In our acoustic it should sound amazing - certainly better than anything 150,000.00 of rebuild would do for our pipe organ. Evrything would work as it should. No heating issues - comfortable console - no tuning (a saving of 500 twice a year).
Forget about the organ of 25 years ago - we have come a long way since then. If you need convincing go listen to the Cavaille-Coll emulations on the http://www.johannus.com website. They are another very pioneering company who deserve attention. It is amazing how many pipe organ builders won't even give them the time of day. Such a shame.
Apologies if my rambling has bored anyone - I looking forward to a Phoenix and getting back into some serious revision of the repertoire which has lapsed over the past 20 years!!!

[asb]

I do not subscribe to the camp that implies 'one size fits all' - like many of the Viscount / Allen et al. If it has a 'Model' number it is going to come in a box!!!
I want to give many hours to the design of this organ. I want it designed and built for our church - I don't want something dropped on the floor by a piano salesman who knows nothing about organs - I don't want internal speakers only... By the way... Internal speakers are a total waste of time.

The first of these statements is rather a sweeping generalization. 15 years ago my church bought a Viscount, with a model number, and it was indeed "out of the box", not really suited to the building, and, frankly, dissapointing, although it gave sterling service, and continues so to do in someone's home.

This year, the opportunity arose to replace it. Having researched the major suppliers, we have replaced it with.....another Viscount - with a model number. There the similarity ends. I have no commercial "interest" in Viscount, but I must ask you to look seriously at all options and not (as I might have so easily done myself) dismiss a company on the basis of their products 15 years ago. The Viscount "Prestige" range can have it's stop list "customized" (as I did) I know nothing of the technical side, but Viscount are now delivering what other suppliers claim to do - but doing it better! I am spending more time at the console than ever because it is such a joy to play and does its job superbly.

Internal speakers can work in a small building, but I agree that externals are really a "must" - or, as in our case, acombination of the two.

[Psalm Project]

This has touched a nerve!
My contention here is that many of the organ type you mention (in my country at least) is sold as being the 'bees knees'
They simply are not. Most, if not all, of my professional colleagues are in agreement. That is our informed opinion. The over-riding comment is always one of unmusicality.
I accept that many such organs are giving adequate service in particular situations.
Internal speakers do not adequately develop the pedal 16' registers - fact!
They are a compromise at best. I was serious about the issue of tinnitus... In order to provide an adequate volume to support a congregation it is necessary to have those little internal speakers bleating their hearts out. The levels are dangerously high for long exposure to hearing. I know of at least one UK-Based supplier who openly advises of this danger issue in their brochure / Owner''s manual. Like you, I have no vested commercial interest here - I call a spade a spade.
The original posting, as I understand it, was dealing with pipe versus digital. My comments can be taken as read in my first posting. Some manufacturers do it better than others - no further comment on brands lest I invoke the wrath of whatever!
Anyone else in the situation I presently have i.e. pressurised heating with a pipe organ?
Oh, we also have a 10 year old Johannus Opus 5 (The ones Makin designed) - three external speakers - It is really very good. I would never use it with internals - it is pointless and horrible. The externals are critical.

[Southern Comfort]

I have to say that I have listened to the Phoenix demo recordings, and I have also have had real Phoenix organs in churches demonstrated to me by the manufacturer and have played them. The difference is chalk and cheese.

The recordings do sound good, but I suspect that this is because they have been recorded via direct feed into the DAT (or whatever) recorder, rather than recording 'live' in a building. This may well be the problem with demo recordings from other manufacturers, too.

The live instruments are not nearly as impressive as I had hoped. To my ear (and that of the cathedral organist I took with me), the tone quality was far from brilliant - not much better than an Allen, I dare to say - and there are characteristics in speech which are not pleasant. The action on the manuals is not comfortable to play - very springy and generally not pleasant. I was also not impressed with the appearance of the speakers used by this firm. Consoles are made by Renatus and therefore look fine - perhaps this is what has been persuading others to buy.

YMMV

[asb]

Internal speakers do not adequately develop the pedal 16' registers - fact!

I wanted a soft 32' on ours. It works superbly (albeit helped by externals) - FACT!

[musicus]

Welcome to the forum, Psalm Project!