Sung Masses

[asb]

Isn't there something that says that we should be able to sing the Credo and Pater Noster in Mass? Has this been taken to apply only to Masses in Latin?

There is indeed.

And if it has been interpreted anywhere that this only applies to Masses in Latin, I suspect that this interpretation is wrong.

I have on many occasions accompanied a Latin Creed (and occasionally Pater Noster) at a Vernacular Mass - indeed frequently the entire Ordinary in Latin.

[mcb]

Isn't there something that says that we should be able to sing the Credo and Pater Noster in Mass? Has this been taken to apply only to Masses in Latin?

There is indeed. And if it has been interpreted anywhere that this only applies to Masses in Latin, I suspect that this interpretation is wrong.

Sacrosanctum Concilium says:

116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

But the General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours seems to take a less categorical line:

274. For liturgical celebrations sung in Latin, Gregorian chant, as the music proper to the Roman liturgy, should have pride of place, all other things being equal. [See SC 116.] Nevertheless, “the Church does not exclude any type of sacred music from liturgical services as long as the music matches the spirit of the service itself and the character of the individual parts and is not a hindrance to the required active participation of the people.” [Musicam Sacram 9. See also SC 116.]

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal has the reference to the Creed and the Lord's Prayer:

All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful. Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord's Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.(41)

but specifically in relation to international gatherings. If we take our own bishops' advice on what to sing in the Mass, both these items are at the bottom of the list of priorities, rated equal with the priest singing the Prayer over the Gifts, or the Prayer after Communion.

M.

[asb]

All other things being equal........

I have often wondered what this actually means!

[nazard]

... so I have added the Wiener Our Father. This is part of the parish repertoire, but led by guitars.

This works brilliantly on the organ. I always solo the melody on the swell oboe, play the alto and tenor on the great flute, and the bass on the pedals with a 16' subbass and great coupled. The children seem to love the bass line. I am trying to persuade the music group bass guitarist to play the bass line prominiently when they do it, but he is too shy. ( A shy bass guitarist: there's one for the books!)

[nazard]

All other things being equal........

I have often wondered what this actually means!

Is it a translation of "ceteris paribus"?

[musicus]

Is it a translation of "ceteris paribus"?

Wikipedia thinks so.

[nazard]

Sorry for confusing you, Mr Bear (BTW - new Paddington book is out today), I wanted to know if the phrase in the latin text of SC is "ceteris paribus." If it is, then this would imply that the writer of the document thought that all other things were equal at the time of writing, wheras if he wanted to imply that you should sing gregorian chant if all things were equal at the time of singing, he would have used a subordinate clause starting "si..." Hence my question. If he meant all other things are equal at the time of writing SC, then it is quite a firm instruction to chant a fair bit. Does anyone know the real answer?

[mcb]

I wanted to know if the phrase in the latin text of SC is "ceteris paribus." If it is, then this would imply that the writer of the document thought that all other things were equal at the time of writing, wheras if he wanted to imply that you should sing gregorian chant if all things were equal at the time of singing, he would have used a subordinate clause starting "si..."

No, I think this is trying to read too much into the Latin. I'm not sure what sense to make of your first alternative reading, which if I understand right is roughly "since all other things are equal, you should sing chant". What does the subordinate first clause mean, and why would someone want to say it?

On top of which, it's actually your first reading which strikes me as the more likely to attract a subordinate clause in Latin, and the second ("sing chant, if all else is equal") for which the ablative absolute construction seems to work better.

M.

[docmattc]

On top of which, it's actually your first reading which strikes me as the more likely to attract a subordinate clause in Latin, and the second ("sing chant, if all else is equal") for which the ablative absolute construction seems to work better.

Never mind the Latin- can we have a translation of the English?

[mcb]

What are you, some kind of scientist or something?

Subordinate clause = a sentence that's part of a longer sentence, separated by a comma and introduced by a conjunction (conjunctions include the word "since" in my English paraphrase, and the word "si" (if) in the hypothetical Latin version Nazard hinted at.)

The ablative absolute construction is a trick in Latin, where you can state what would be a clause in English without having to use a verb: ceteris paribus means literally "the rest (being) equal" (and more idiomatically, "since the rest are equal" or "if the rest are equal"; it's ambiguous), where you don't need a word for "being" (or "are") in the Latin.

Does that help?

M.

[asb]

Oh blimey - I was really only musing to myself when I asked!

[nazard]

I have had time to do a little research, and here is the latin text in question

"116. Ecclesia cantum gregorianum agnoscit ut liturgiae romanae proprium: qui ideo in actionibus liturgicis, ceteris paribus, principem locum obtineat."

I am going to think about it for a while. In the meantime, let the arguments commence.....

[alan29]

Another interesting question is what actually qualifies as chant?
Personally I would not accept Credo 3 or Missa de Angelis as chant - not properly modal and much too late. Whereas I suspect that for some, these are the measure of all liturgical music.
I look forward to the "choir" of St Warble in the Dell getting their tonsils around some of the Liber Alleluias, for example. Or the congregation joining in the Introit as it is repeated between verses of the psalm.
Alan

[organist]

alan29 You may be in for a long wait!

[nazard]

I have spent far too long reading Latin grammars and various websites about Ablative Absolutes, and come to the conclusion that it is ambiguous. The writers, who are presumably experts, translate using any tense or mood of the verb to be which seems to fit best, and either because or if to introduce the english clause. "Ceteris paribus" can therefore be translated as "because other things are equal", or "if other things are equal". Caesar and Tacitus seem to require the reader to choose between renderings of the ablative absolute at random if their texts are to make sense. I don't think we are going to find any great help in deciding how much to use chant from this clause of SC.

I think that we should take note of the council's two main thrusts in music, to preserve the existing heritage, and to add to it. This would seem to preclude dropping chant altogether as some would favour, and the converse position of including no new work.

Alan, the council forgot to define chant, but I think that as they commissioned a new edition of the Graduale Romanum, and the writing of the Graduale Simplex, those volumes contents could serve as example of what they meant. As for the age of chant items, I suspect that some of the new mass chants, especially the english ones, are late twentieth century.

Might it work better at St Warble's if the choir sang the antiphons and the congregation the verses? It does seem to be the de facto state in monasteries that while the whole community sing (or groan) the psalm verses, only the more competent sing the antiphons.