Status of Hymns at Mass

[docmattc]

What about that long period of silence while altar servers and eucharistic ministers take communion? Is music acceptable there?
As for the communion hymn, my instruction from the PP is very clear. It starts as he returns from the tabernacle after putting away the ciborium.

The rubrics say that the Communion hymn should start as the priest receives communion, so music is not only acceptable but preferable while servers and extraordinary ministers receive. What do you do musically during the procession? For practical reasons that the choir receive first (we tried last, and it was a disaster) I usually improvise on the theme of the Agnus Dei during this time, stop whilst I receive and then begin the communion hymn/chant/psalm or whatever we're calling it.

When we have one, I start the post communion thanksgiving hymn as the PP returns from the tabernacle, (but why the tabernacle is routinely visited is the subject of another thread) having tried my best to end the communion chant as the ministers turn and go back onto the sanctuary.

[mcb]

There are multiple variants of the text <snip> All but the last make explicit reference to water (unda can mean 'water' as well as 'wave', and that's what it means here)

We could spend a long time arguing about minutiae like this, but let's not.

Yes, you're quite right, let's leave it.

Re-read that Isaiah bit about "From her I send flowing peace like a river" for an idea of the "flowing" implications of unda, which does not necessarily mean 'water' here just because you say it does.

Oh, ok, let's not leave it. Because I say it does? I don't think it's in any doubt among scholars. I was pointing out that you appeared to have misunderstood the Latin. But you're right, let's leave it.

But it's not the text in the motets that we're talking about.

Sigh. No, but the word unda (water) is. What was your point again?

I think there's a world of difference between a polyphonic motet and BF's Bread of Life with its refrain for all, and a Psallite Song for the Table, once again with its refrain for all.

I think you misunderstood my point here, which was to suggest other situations in which the assembly might not be singing. Imagine the children's choir singing by itself without the assembly joining in. In my experience this isn't unknown when young children's choirs sing in church. My point is that this too can be an authentically prayerful moment, and a fitting accompaniment for the Communion procession.

I think you're using the "different needs and different means" as an excuse for inaction.

We need to do the work, not simply say "This is very hard, so let's not even try."

Perhaps you misunderstand some more? None of what I've written is an attempt to defend my own practice; I've barely mentioned what we do at my place of worship. On the contrary, I'm trying to persuade you that there are multiple ways of achieving the diverse and complex 'aims' (if that isn't a silly word in this context) of the Communion procession, and the hard line you're pushing, namely that there's only one way of doing it, is unreasonably restrictive.

Composers have been working at this area for 35 years and more, and there are plenty of examples in the repertoire of Communion songs and extended Lamb of God settings which do precisely bear repetition through the rite.

Well, I beg to differ, on the basis of said practical and pastoral experience. Gathered assemblies large and small will often join willingly in a sung refrain that repeats many times (with or without intervening verses), but it's only exceptionally that they will sing right to the end of the Communion rite. My sense is that quite often the internal takes over from the external - the individual is eventually immersed in prayer, and is content to let other voices maintain the song. In the end, more often than not, it comes down to the choir to exercise that role.

A related example: Good Friday this year. The choir sang Victoria's reproaches, the plainchant Christus Factus, and what have you, but the item which generated the most positive feedback was Jacques Berthier's Jesus, Remember Me, which we sang at the end of the Veneration, as the choir joined the end of the procession and made their own acts of veneration. The people were encouraged to join in. And they did indeed, for quite a while, but eventually (my impression was) people sat or knelt, lost in the beautiful simplicity of it and listened to the choir singing as they processed. Did the members of the assembly fail in letting that happen? Was it a failure to catechize on the part of the clergy or the musical ministers? I think not. This was 'letting it happen' in a way that contributed in a small way to the authentic experience of prayer.

It's not far off what can happen in the Communion procession too. "Individual Communion" and "communal communion" aren't mutually exclusive, and sometimes "being ministered to" can be an expression of actuosa participatio.

...the post-communion "choir meditation" piece. And they are trying to get rid of it, having realised that not only is it in breach of liturgical norms but also that frequently it can come across as "the time when we all have to sit and wait while the choir shows off" (yes, I know it's judgemental language, but this is what people say).

I've gone on long enough! Maybe we can come back to this in another thread, another time. (Actually we've been there many times before!) It seems to me that by this reckoning the Preparation of the Gifts is no place at all for a choral piece, and that choral music just needs to be stamped out. Which is sort of where we came in!

M.

[Southern Comfort]

I only ask - and I'm being curious, not provocative - because I've learnt things from this thread and others about the way 'the assembly' is supposed to be thinking/acting/behaving at different points that were new to me (and I've read all the documents referred to in this thread at least), but, has anybody here any experience of any attempt to inform/train/form a congregation in what's expected of them, and why? Not just at Communion, but throughout the mass. What were the results?

For me, this is key. We talk a lot about what the documents say the assembly is or is not doing or thinking at particular points, but none of it amounts to a row of beans unless somebody bothers to tell the assembly... They won't pick it up by telepathy or osmosis, or even by any number of changes in what music is fired at them and when.

Absolutely so. It is key, and it takes a long time - even years - of patient work, often by a cantor, ideally by a cantor and parish priest in concert, to form a congregation in an understanding of what liturgy is. In the past when I've done this, the results have been spectacular, but it took a minimum of a year, often rather longer, to get there.

[Southern Comfort]

......but also that frequently it can come across as "the time when we all have to sit and wait while the choir shows off" (yes, I know it's judgemental language, but this is what people say).

No time to contribute more to this interesting debate now as I only have a 10 minute lunch break today but it seems to me that this is rather a sweeping statement. It's not what all people say. I've attended Mass at mcb's place of worship and the post-communion choir piece seems to be very well received there. A number of people have commented upon how it is an aid to prayerful reflective meditation and I have always found it to be so.

I should have been clearer: this is what people in the USA often say about the choir meditation, and my remarks were confined to them at this point. I have no experience of this happening in the UK, and was suprised to find that mcb was actually doing it.

[Southern Comfort]

But it's not the text in the motets that we're talking about.

Sigh. No, but the word unda (water) is. What was your point again?

Since you raise it, my point was that unda = 'wave', with connotations of 'flowing', even 'flood', etc, rather than water (aqua) as a general rule. It's perfectly legitimate to construe its use as qualifying the way liquid actually mentioned (blood in this case) behaves.

I take some of your other points, though I think we have to differ on what manages to last the whole time of Communion, where I have a host of experiences which are obviously different from yours - perhaps partly because of the forming of assemblies referred to in my agreement with contrabordun above, but also because of repertoire used and the way in which it was used.

However, this one does deserve a further comment:

...the post-communion "choir meditation" piece. And they are trying to get rid of it, having realised that not only is it in breach of liturgical norms but also that frequently it can come across as "the time when we all have to sit and wait while the choir shows off" (yes, I know it's judgemental language, but this is what people say).

<snip> It seems to me that by this reckoning the Preparation of the Gifts is no place at all for a choral piece, and that choral music just needs to be stamped out. Which is sort of where we came in!

The important words here are "the time when we all have to sit and wait". That's certainly not the case during the procession/presentation of the gifts/altar/minister, incensing, etc. There, the music is accompanying a whole slew of actions. After Communion, it isn't.

I'm far from saying that choral music is out, and I wouldn't ever say that the choir can't show off! - just that choral music needs to be used with much more discernment in a post-Vatican II liturgy than it was before. It's no longer possible simply to slot something into a once-habitual place and hope that it will do the trick. Yes, I know from your posts, mcb, that you don't do this at all, but many do. I'm really talking about the balance between assembly and choir, and trying to encourage us to think in a different way. As far as the Communion procession is concerned, here is one place among many others where both assembly and choir have a role - in the same piece! As far as choral singing itself is concerned, there are ways of demonstrating the abilities of the choir which do not derail the liturgical action.

[Claire B]

The rubrics say that the Communion hymn should start as the priest receives communion, so music is not only acceptable but preferable while servers and extraordinary ministers receive. What do you do musically during the procession?

Ooh, I missed that question while reading the exchange between SC/mcb.

The organ I play is next to the (name for the platform the altar is on, our church building is modern and wider than long) so I'm first to receive communion from the EMs, then I'm back on the bench and play; well, sometimes a hymn tune that is not in the repertoire, trying it out as trio playing, or one of the trio exercises from Oortmerssen. Something simple and repetitive. I started using the exercises when one of the cleaners in the church when I was practising commented on what a good tune it had.

On other Sundays when the music group gathers, they sing something intended as meditative.

I have to say that I prefer the hymn after the processing is all over. I want to sing it, and I've yet to encounter a service where it was a chant we could all sing away from the pew. I concur with earlier comments about Jesus, remember me, used on Good Friday. Music group sang, congregation joined in when they wanted, stopped when they wished to pray silently. Excellent.