Relative importance of feasts

[docmattc]

I remember reading what I think was a vatican document somewhere recently that stated that the feast of Pentecost was equal in staus to that of Christmas. Is this still the case (You wouldn't guess it usually) and if so can anyone point me to the approriate document?
If this isn't that case, where does Pentecost fit in the pecking order?

[mcb]

It's in the rubrics of the 1962 Missal, section XI.91:

Table of Liturgical Days
Arranged in the order of Precedence
Liturgical Days of the First class
1. Christmas day, Easter Sunday and Pentecost Sunday (1st class with octave).

The whole Missal is downloadable here, but be warned it's a very big file (about 80 MB, I think).

M.

[mcb]

On the other hand the document for the post-Vatican II calendar is a bit less definite:

TABLE OF LITURGICAL DAYS ACCORDING TO THEIR ORDER OF PRECEDENCE

I:

1:
Easter Triduum of the Lord's Passion and Resurrection

2:
Christmas, Epiphany, Ascension, and Pentecost
Sundays of Advent, Lent and the Easter season
Ash Wednesday
Weekdays of Holy Week from Monday to Thursday, inclusive
Days within the Octave of Easter

(General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar, 1969)

So Pentecost is still ranked equally with Christmas, but also with the Sundays of Advent, etc. Or are we supposed to read the successive rows of the table as a descending order of precedence?

M.

[edbowie]

I think that Pentecost can no longer be regarded as being equal to Christmas and Easter. Both the latter have octaves; Pentecost does not. Walk into Westminster Cathedral on May 12 and you will see that Green vestments have returned.

[alan29]

Surely Easter is supreme and unique.
Alan

[edbowie]

Indeed, and the day of Pentecost marks the end of the Easter feast; hence no octave !

[docmattc]

I think the table in the calendar is saying that a feast in a lower league may not displace one in a higher league. eg, St Patrick is a lower rank feast than the weekdays of holy week (which is why it didn't appear on the E&W calendar this year), but the Dedication of the Lateran Basillica is in a higher class than a Sunday of Ordinary time, so when it falls on a Sunday (eg this year) it supercedes the Sunday feast. Sundays of Advent out rank the Lateran Basillica so if it were to fall on an Advent Sunday (mathematically impossible I know) we wouldn't celebrate it. Its a set of liturgical top trumps

Christmas, Pentecost, Epiphany and Ascension rank highest except the triduum so nothing can displace them from the calendar. As they cannot clash with each other I supsect the calendar isn't making a comment about their relative ranks.

I guess what I'm really getting at is how much our first communions can take over from Pentecost. My view is that it must be Pentecost Sunday with first communions rather than first communion Sunday with Pentecost playing second fiddle. My comparison with Christmas is that no-one would consider Christmas day being hijacked but the Spirit gets a raw deal!

[Southern Comfort]

I guess what I'm really getting at is how much our first communions can take over from Pentecost. My view is that it must be Pentecost Sunday with first communions rather than first communion Sunday with Pentecost playing second fiddle. My comparison with Christmas is that no-one would consider Christmas day being hijacked but the Spirit gets a raw deal!

So now we know what your original question was really about..... No, First Communions cannot hijack or displace Pentecost. It's simply the wrong day to have them.

[mcb]

It's simply the wrong day to have them.

I don't know about that. There's nothing inherent in the feast that makes it inappropriate. Here in Salford for many years (under Bishop Kelly) Easter Sunday was the day for first communion for all children. It seems no less appropriate than, say, having Christian Initiation linked to the Easter Vigil. It just depends how much the trappings of the traditional FHC celebration are allowed to interfere with the celebrations proper to the feast.

M.

[JoeWilkinson]

In our Parish Liturgy Group I proposed that since Ascension/Pentecost/Trinity/CorpusChristi are now in a block and FHC day "has to come in time for the new white frocks in the Corpus Christi procession" we should fix FHC day on one of the days, for considered Liturgical or Theological reasons. This might well be Trinity (as the theology is a bit complex for most of us), and then the Family Parties, School May Fayre and Half Term would just have to work round it. I didn't get too far, but we have fixed it for Trinity next year (at least until the School Fundraisers fix the May Fayre next year and Mammon takes over again )

[organist]

Good try Joe Wilkinson! Why can't first communion just be at the Mass the family normally attend?

[asb]

Mu understanding is that, now, the "Extraordinary" form of the Mass is basically on an equal footing with the "Ordinary" form.

If that is indeed the case, why did the local Tridentinists have a Mass here this morning for Ascension Day, when for everyone else now it is on Sunday........? Am I missing something?

[gwyn]

No, asb, you're not missing anything. It's simply that the old calendar kept the Ascension of Our Blessed Lord on the Thursday, the new calendar for the sake of watered down liturgical and individual convenience has shunted all His feasts to the closest Sunday.

It's worse that this though; Thr disciples kept a nine day vigil of prayer while waiting for the Holy spirit to come at Pentecost a Novena See The Acts of The Apostles 1: 14. Under the new diluted calendar this is reduced to seven days of prayer vigil. I'm not sure what the name for that would be.

We have a Traditional rite Mass this (Thursday) evening. Deo Gratias.

It's noteworthy that while Feast of Our Blessed Lord are moved to the nearest Sunday, Feasts of His Blessed Mother are not. The message is clear: A little inconvenience is required to attend a weekday Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation in honour of Our Lady, but no inconveneience for those in honour of Our Lord.

All interesting stuff.

[docmattc]

My understanding is that, now, the "Extraordinary" form of the Mass is basically on an equal footing with the "Ordinary" form.
If that is indeed the case, why did the local Tridentinists have a Mass here this morning for Ascension Day, when for everyone else now it is on Sunday........? Am I missing something?

Lest we start down the road of discussing the pros and cons of our bishops' decision to move feasts of the Lord to the nearest Sunday, lets remind ourselves of the discussion we had on this thread about that very issue and avoid going round in circles again. Even this EF/OF calendar discrepancy was put forward.

Asb's understanding is backed up by the recent ruling by Ecclesia Dei that in both EF and OF of the rite the holydays are held in common.

Clearly the 'Tridentinists' in asb's neck of the woods (and Gwyn's) are choosing to ignore Rome when Rome gives a ruling they disagree with. The right hemi-blogosphere has been full of it this week.

[gwyn]

Clearly the 'Tridentinists' in asb's neck of the woods (and Gwyn's) are choosing to ignore Rome when Rome gives a ruling they disagree with.

No, not really. Ascension will be kept as a Feast of Our Blessed Lord on Sunday 4th May. It's an optional thing to attend this (Thursday) evening with no obligation attatched or implied.

Where's the spell checker thewe days?

Be joyful! Keep the faith.