Patrick O'Donoghue, the Bishop of Lancaster, will be questioned over his ban on what he calls "values-free" sex education in Catholic schools in his diocese and his order to put up crucifixes in every classroom.
http://marymagdalen.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... gious.html
As yet there is no evidence that I can find of his brother bishops supporting him. Hopefully this is because it is early days.
A crucifix in every classroom - fundamentalism?
Moderators: Dom Perignon, Casimir
Re: A crucifix in every classroom - fundamentalism?
Just shows the persecution all religions are undergoing at the moment in the UK. Religious iconography is required by all dioceses in Catholic classrooms. We would be going against the church's teaching if we were to teach that sex can be value free - and it patently isn't - look at all the trouble it causes. While I might not agree with everything the church teaches about sex it is unacceptable to pretend that secular values are the correct ones. Furthermore, a teacher in a catholic school is paid to uphold the church's teaching where issues arises - otherwise don't go there. I do think we need to sharpen up our RE teaching. When I was teaching, the set scheme was 'Here I Am' which (in my very humble opinion) has many shortcomings which the Hierarchy has refused to recognise. Perhaps the biggest issue is that it the modules grow from being child centred outwards - guess what - some classes never get beyond the child centred bits. OK shift the blame for this on to the teachers if you like but I think there are deeper issues here, mainly the move from catechisms and laying down the law so that it is no longer clear what our faith is. (e.g. (1) Does the state of Limbo exist or not - aren't we right to tell grieving parents that their unbaptised baby has gone to heaven? (2) The Creed mentions hell but we are warned to think carefully before/whether teaching about hell so as not to frighten children. These questions get to the core of our existence. All the teachers I have known and worked with are/were tremendous people with a real commitment, trying to teach what the Church wants us to teach.
Any comments, Reginald? BTW, do you really get support from the children for after school Latin? OK I guess your intake may be from a different societal background to mine but I struggled to get children to commit to after school football - it was obviously the wrong subject.
I do sometimes wonder if we are doing the right thing having catholic schools - they do not seem to produce committed catholics in any large numbers. OK I know that's not their only purpose but there are ways of educating our children in the faith outside of the weekday school system.
Any comments, Reginald? BTW, do you really get support from the children for after school Latin? OK I guess your intake may be from a different societal background to mine but I struggled to get children to commit to after school football - it was obviously the wrong subject.
I do sometimes wonder if we are doing the right thing having catholic schools - they do not seem to produce committed catholics in any large numbers. OK I know that's not their only purpose but there are ways of educating our children in the faith outside of the weekday school system.
JW
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oopsorganist
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Re: A crucifix in every classroom - fundamentalism?
So then, I only have a third of the CTC but I thought teachers in Catholic schools were paid to teach the Gospels and Gospel Values. Maybe I got it wrong.
But certainly the requirement in the state sector is to steer clear of the cross and cruxifiction until Key Stage 2. "Requirement" means obliged to legally.
But certainly the requirement in the state sector is to steer clear of the cross and cruxifiction until Key Stage 2. "Requirement" means obliged to legally.
uh oh!
Re: A crucifix in every classroom - fundamentalism?
Oops,
I have none of the CTC, congratulations to you for making the effort. With regard to Gospel values, they are the mainstay of our faith but Catholics also believe in following the traditional teaching of the church - teaching handed down and developed over the years by the Church (e.g. prayers to Saints, Immaculate Conception) - and this is where non catholics often have problems with us.
When I was nominated to be a foundation governor of a school, I received a letter from the bishop requiring me to confirm that I would support the Church's teaching. Governors would not dream of appointing anyone to a Catholic school who is not prepared to support the church. The whole point of a Catholic school is that it upholds Catholic values.
There is no RE National Curriculum - so I don't understand where the 'requirement' you mention comes in. Could you elaborate? I would agree that avoiding too much emphasis on the cross and crucifixion at Key Stage 1 (up to age 7) is probably good eductional practice.
I have none of the CTC, congratulations to you for making the effort. With regard to Gospel values, they are the mainstay of our faith but Catholics also believe in following the traditional teaching of the church - teaching handed down and developed over the years by the Church (e.g. prayers to Saints, Immaculate Conception) - and this is where non catholics often have problems with us.
When I was nominated to be a foundation governor of a school, I received a letter from the bishop requiring me to confirm that I would support the Church's teaching. Governors would not dream of appointing anyone to a Catholic school who is not prepared to support the church. The whole point of a Catholic school is that it upholds Catholic values.
There is no RE National Curriculum - so I don't understand where the 'requirement' you mention comes in. Could you elaborate? I would agree that avoiding too much emphasis on the cross and crucifixion at Key Stage 1 (up to age 7) is probably good eductional practice.
JW
Re: A crucifix in every classroom - fundamentalism?
If only education were just a matter of telling a child that something is to be believed, and they then believed it.
I think that Catholicism is rather more than a set of propositions that have to be assented to. And I believe that catholic schools are about so much more than that. They at least have to reflect gospel values (so much harder than getting them to mouth a dogma) to children who are arriving with all sorts of family stories, issues and problems. I have spent the last 25 years as a secondary RE teacher with pastoral responsibility in one of the most socially deprived areas of Liverpool. I find myself aking what positive impact the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception would have on the life of a 14 year old whose single mother is supporting her drug habit on benefit or in horizontal employment, and who has to keep a look out on the way home for armed members of gangs. And who gets blind drunk of a weekend as a temporary escape.
That is the daily reality for very many of the kids in our inner city schools.
There is a very wise priest in the neigbourhood who likes to point out that the fundamental beliefs of christianity are that
1 we are loved unconditionally by God
2 redemption is always possible
3 forgiveness is the distinctive Christian value.
This is what we try to live in our school community, and, yes it does make a difference to them. Believe me, these are notions that are literally "good news" to most of our pupils, and that are diametrically opposed to the values current in their communities (especially 3.) If the Church continues to invest its money in schools such as ours which try to be beacons of light in dark places, then it will not be going too far wrong.
By the way, we do have crucifixes in our classrooms, and a very simple chapel (quiet space) that is loved and respected by the majority of the kids. And we are blessed by having a young layman as our chaplain who understands the need the kids have for quite prayer and reflection. But we have no sacramental celebrations because hardly any of the kids have made their first communion because of family complications.
Alan
I think that Catholicism is rather more than a set of propositions that have to be assented to. And I believe that catholic schools are about so much more than that. They at least have to reflect gospel values (so much harder than getting them to mouth a dogma) to children who are arriving with all sorts of family stories, issues and problems. I have spent the last 25 years as a secondary RE teacher with pastoral responsibility in one of the most socially deprived areas of Liverpool. I find myself aking what positive impact the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception would have on the life of a 14 year old whose single mother is supporting her drug habit on benefit or in horizontal employment, and who has to keep a look out on the way home for armed members of gangs. And who gets blind drunk of a weekend as a temporary escape.
That is the daily reality for very many of the kids in our inner city schools.
There is a very wise priest in the neigbourhood who likes to point out that the fundamental beliefs of christianity are that
1 we are loved unconditionally by God
2 redemption is always possible
3 forgiveness is the distinctive Christian value.
This is what we try to live in our school community, and, yes it does make a difference to them. Believe me, these are notions that are literally "good news" to most of our pupils, and that are diametrically opposed to the values current in their communities (especially 3.) If the Church continues to invest its money in schools such as ours which try to be beacons of light in dark places, then it will not be going too far wrong.
By the way, we do have crucifixes in our classrooms, and a very simple chapel (quiet space) that is loved and respected by the majority of the kids. And we are blessed by having a young layman as our chaplain who understands the need the kids have for quite prayer and reflection. But we have no sacramental celebrations because hardly any of the kids have made their first communion because of family complications.
Alan
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oopsorganist
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Re: A crucifix in every classroom - fundamentalism?
That is what I was told by our RE co ordinator. Not at a Catholic school , a community school......... didn't stop Year One making cards with a cross against a sunset background, very fetching they were. There may be no RE curriculum but it is the only area of the curriculum, and now I do forget, it is either has to be taught, or has to be examined by OFSTED.
I hope you do not have ISP on top of all that challenge Alan29.
And I suppose this is not just off thread but off forum so to speak except that we do often ask, what are they singing in the schools and where are they all? Tomorrow we have the joy of a service led by our parish primary, The Servant King, Blessed are you God Lord of all etc, One Bread One Body, and the As the deer pants for the etc, and bidding prayers and readers. Won't be many children there, maybe 30 at best, and some of those will be also altar servers or preparing for First Holy Communion but it cheers me up to include them and to feel that we can actually see some children. I also have a youngster (17) playing the keyboard for them, not a Catholic, not an anything actually, but interested enough to try and overcome his nerves for a second time playing in public to strangers. I am aware that old people, who dominate the scene will regret the lack of standard hymns but I exchange that for the attendance of a few children and parents who would not otherwise attend in Holy Week and the slight mending of a big rift between Parish and School which happened when they threw PP off the Governing Body.
I hope you do not have ISP on top of all that challenge Alan29.
And I suppose this is not just off thread but off forum so to speak except that we do often ask, what are they singing in the schools and where are they all? Tomorrow we have the joy of a service led by our parish primary, The Servant King, Blessed are you God Lord of all etc, One Bread One Body, and the As the deer pants for the etc, and bidding prayers and readers. Won't be many children there, maybe 30 at best, and some of those will be also altar servers or preparing for First Holy Communion but it cheers me up to include them and to feel that we can actually see some children. I also have a youngster (17) playing the keyboard for them, not a Catholic, not an anything actually, but interested enough to try and overcome his nerves for a second time playing in public to strangers. I am aware that old people, who dominate the scene will regret the lack of standard hymns but I exchange that for the attendance of a few children and parents who would not otherwise attend in Holy Week and the slight mending of a big rift between Parish and School which happened when they threw PP off the Governing Body.
uh oh!
Re: A crucifix in every classroom - fundamentalism?
Hi, Alan 29,
Respect! I only lasted two terms in a socially deprived (non catholic) secondary school (and had the severe special needs form in Y8), so yes! I have some idea where you're coming from. Looking at the Lourdes story for a minute, Mary did seem to think that the Immaculate Conception was relevant to a 14 year old illiterate, severely asthmatic girl living in such grinding poverty that she lived with her whole family in one room and had to scavenge for fuel. Her father was unemployed, was known to the police. She had lived for a short time away from her mother because of the family's problems. Yet this was the girl whom Mary decided would be ideal to get a church built for her and who co-operated in supplying a healing touch to millions of lives at Lourdes.
Alan, you're doing an incredible job and thousands of people are better people for having encountered you.
Respect! I only lasted two terms in a socially deprived (non catholic) secondary school (and had the severe special needs form in Y8), so yes! I have some idea where you're coming from. Looking at the Lourdes story for a minute, Mary did seem to think that the Immaculate Conception was relevant to a 14 year old illiterate, severely asthmatic girl living in such grinding poverty that she lived with her whole family in one room and had to scavenge for fuel. Her father was unemployed, was known to the police. She had lived for a short time away from her mother because of the family's problems. Yet this was the girl whom Mary decided would be ideal to get a church built for her and who co-operated in supplying a healing touch to millions of lives at Lourdes.
Alan, you're doing an incredible job and thousands of people are better people for having encountered you.
JW
Re: A crucifix in every classroom - fundamentalism?
Sorry, wasn't igonring you but was in Normandy with the school. By the by, attended Mass at Mont St Michel, procession with palms from the gate at the bottom up to the abbey church. Interesting music - spot the euphemism!
Anyhoo...I play it four square, down the line in the classroom. As I see it, my job is to help the children understand why the Church teaches what it does - and then it really doesn't matter how I personally feel about such or such an issue. I think there can be a temptation on the part of some teachers to communicate their own doubts and reservations to the children - thinking particularly of issues like women in the priesthood - and I don't think that's healthy. Nor would I advocate the uncritical aproach of some - that's just the way it is, so there!
Personally, I think that 'Fit for Mission' is fantastic and that we should be more assertive in expressing our Catholic identity and in unashamedly communicating the faith - not to do so would be like winning the lottery and not sharing the proceeds or eating a bag of doughnuts in front of the kids and not sharing. However, we also need to be aware that in some areas only a tiny proportion of the staff are practising anything, still less practising Catholic, and sometimes schools need to be realistic about what could be achieved in their particular circumstances.
As regards the Latin, we are the only Catholic school for the county and have an incredibly diverse catchment. The class is only about 16 strong and contains the sons of both Anglican and Methodist ministers - as well as an RE teacher who talks a good traditionalist talk but didn't know his amo from his amas until September!
Off to Clifton after school - hoping to be there for Evening Mass of the Lord's Supper - First Great Western willing - may not be back near a computer for several days so a happy and blessed Easter to all.
Anyhoo...I play it four square, down the line in the classroom. As I see it, my job is to help the children understand why the Church teaches what it does - and then it really doesn't matter how I personally feel about such or such an issue. I think there can be a temptation on the part of some teachers to communicate their own doubts and reservations to the children - thinking particularly of issues like women in the priesthood - and I don't think that's healthy. Nor would I advocate the uncritical aproach of some - that's just the way it is, so there!
Personally, I think that 'Fit for Mission' is fantastic and that we should be more assertive in expressing our Catholic identity and in unashamedly communicating the faith - not to do so would be like winning the lottery and not sharing the proceeds or eating a bag of doughnuts in front of the kids and not sharing. However, we also need to be aware that in some areas only a tiny proportion of the staff are practising anything, still less practising Catholic, and sometimes schools need to be realistic about what could be achieved in their particular circumstances.
As regards the Latin, we are the only Catholic school for the county and have an incredibly diverse catchment. The class is only about 16 strong and contains the sons of both Anglican and Methodist ministers - as well as an RE teacher who talks a good traditionalist talk but didn't know his amo from his amas until September!
Off to Clifton after school - hoping to be there for Evening Mass of the Lord's Supper - First Great Western willing - may not be back near a computer for several days so a happy and blessed Easter to all.