who does Pange Lingua?

[oopsorganist]

OK

I am sure we did have a thread about this but I could not find it.
Holy Thursday
So there is probably some procession to the side altar I seem to remember playing Therefore we before him bending... and then a pause and then Pange Lingua which was sung in Latin obviously..... maybe they sang it all in Latin, hard to remember and I never saw what was going on....

but somewhere in the last few years the music group as is has lost the ability to sing this in Latin. Maybe the parish can sing it, I am never sure and it is risky to assume that they can and or will do it.

I think it should now be in English. I asked the PP and he didn't have a view and came down for it in English. But as per usual people are getting all excited over this being a departure from tradition. It is if this will cause some great hurt to someone. He also asked to sing One Bread One Body on Good Friday. I said it would shock people and he said "Good".

We were going to risk singing the Gloria in Latin.... on that dangerous assumption that the older people will away and do it. Just the usual tune.

But in all truth I don't want to do any Latin. I can't pronounce any of it and there may be people there who would not warm to it...... and my view is that those people who long for it are the people who would be at this service no matter what so it is not so important for them. While PP is out knocking on doors and trying to round people up back into the church, I think we should almost be saying, let's be more inclusive then and not put off newcomers.

There is also a lot of knicker knotting over "Will you not watch one hour with me" which I think I cannot put anywhere and I am pretty sure that only one or two people know it. I will not put it at the end of the service, because I do know we should be silent.

I think we have discussed this before but I hope people can help me out a bit.

[docmattc]

Its the other way round Oops, Pange Lingua during the procession and Tantum Ergo (which is the last 2 verses of Pange Lingua) on arrival at the Altar of Repose.

We sing both parts in English, its 246 in Laudate (247 is the Latin) or 389 HON (439 Latin)

Nothing seems to polarise people more than the English/Latin question (even here on the forum). It seems to be the case in some places that those who are old enough to remember when the Extraordinary Form was the only form (ie before 1972) are the ones opposed to Latin while the pro-Latin group are too young to remember how it used to be. Someone may be massively hurt by the change (but they'll get over it, or they'll go somewhere else) but equally someone may be inspired.


It seems though that in your case the issue isn't pro/anti Latin, its another case of "But we've always done it that way". If the PP is desperately inviting people back to church, but many of the congregation are opposed to anything different you have a problem. "You're welcome here as long as you tow our line and do things our way" isn't welcoming.
Bp Hollis told a great story at Summer School in 2005, a young girl wanted to join an enclosed community of nuns and after interviewing her, the superior said that before coming to a decision she had to consult the sisters in order that they could discuss how the community needed to change to accomodate a new member.

[JW]

We do one verse of the Pange Lingua in English - that's gets the priest to the altar of repose; then switch to Latin for the 2 verses of the Tantum Ergo, because the choir (and some of the people) can still do it. We end Maundy Thursday with 'Stay With Me' sung very quietly to try to encourage people to be silent at the end of the service - it can get pretty noisy as conversations start up in the congregation and some of the congregation are hard of hearing.

Generally, it now seems to be only a minority of people in many congregations who are comfortable with Latin. Whilst this is regrettable from the viewpoint of the church - Vatican 2 emphasises the importance of Latin:

"the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites" (Sacrosanctum Concilium 36.1),

"Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."(Sacrosanctum Concilium 54)

It is clear that we are not observing these requirements in the worldwide church. In practice we have moved to a vernacular rite and this is unlikely to change with the lack of Latin education in schools &/or parishes. I hope that this is not necessarily a bad thing, perhaps, more the Holy Spirit leading the Church of today. However, Latin does still have a prominent place in some of our cathedrals and major churches.

The Bishops have asked parishes to use simple Latin chants -

"It is therefore desirable that the faithful should know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin set to the simpler Gregorian melodies." (Celebrating the Mass 81)

for the last couple of years, we have used a simple adapted Kyrie chant (Greek!) during Advent and Lent as a response to this. We also frequently use the plainsong 'Alleluia' and 'Amen' but that's as far as the parish seems to be able to go at the moment, apart from the odd Taize chant.

Each parish will wish to be sensitive to the needs of its own congregation and the priests, deacons, readers and music ministers are the people that God is asking to serve within that parish. That does mean providing leadership. I think we have to go forward with what seems best to us and listen to suggestions and criticisms as they are made - and don't get too hung up about it. We will never have everybody 100% comfortable with the liturgy we provide.

[nazard]

We always do Pange lingua in latin. That and Gloria VIII are the only things anyone remembers, but some people do groan about them, but they do tend to be those with "way out" views, the retired hippie generation. At the pp's suggestion we did try english two years ago, but it fouled up dreadfully as we were singing a capella as we crossed the car park in the dark. It produced a lot of complaints. I advise you to stick with whatever goes best for you. You will never find out if you don't try, of course.

On a different tack, we always start Holy Thursday mass with "When Israel was in Egypt's land", which raises a few eyebrows. Does anyone else have this, or any other ingrained habits for Maunday Thursday?

[ChrisC]

We do the first 4 verses in English then in Latin to Picardy, and the Tantum Ergo itself to the Gregorian melody. Quite simple, gives people time to familiarise themselves with the pronunciation, and can work pretty well. Also covers the action nicely...

[contrabordun]

It is clear that we are not observing these requirements in the worldwide church. In practice we have moved to a vernacular rite and this is unlikely to change with the lack of Latin education in schools &/or parishes.

I agree that all 3 of these are statements are correct. But, while this may the reason for not using Latin, is it a valid excuse? Is it not up to us to make it happen? The Muslims and the Jews have a remarkable record of inculcating into their young people knowledge of languages far more remote from English than is (church) Latin.

Did you know the entire Liber Usualis is available as a free pdf from here? I was lucky enough to sing a plainsong Latin mass setting on Ash Wednesday (Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus from Mass 8, the Emendemus at the Imposition and the Qui Meditabitur at Communion). The results, (while far from perfect - 3 of the 5 singers had never seen square notes before) and response from clergy and congregation was sufficiently encouraging for a repeat next year, at which we may be more ambitious, adding the Introit and/or Gradual. The rest of the service was in English: the consensus afterwards was that the music had created a powerful, simple, solemn and prayerful atmosphere, and there was no kneejerking off about 'performance' or 'macaronic' liturgy.

The catch for me was that all this took place in an Anglican church. Now I kind of accept that if I want to sing Noble in B Minor, I have to join an Anglican choir. But you don't have to be a certain Telegraph columnist to find it a bit ironic that these days that's also the only way I can get to sing a Plainsong Proper.

[docmattc]

On a different tack, we always start Holy Thursday mass with "When Israel was in Egypt's land", which raises a few eyebrows. Does anyone else have this, or any other ingrained habits for Maunday Thursday?

We usually start with "The glory of the cross we sing" written by none other than Our Glorious Leader, and using the entrance antiphon prescribed for the day. We also sing "Stay with me" after that while the altar is being stripped.

This thread is in danger of plunging down the route of the pros and cons of Latin in general, a valuable discussion, but one we've had lots and probably not what Oops had in mind. Without a confident choir or cantor to lead the singing, will the congregation sing the Latin, or the English, both, or neither when led only by the organ? There's no way of knowing unless you know your congregation well (and even then its a bit of a lottery).

Some of us here are lucky enough to have a choir which has been rehearsed beforehand and can (usually) be relied on to sing even if we've misjudged it and the congregation don't join in. The congregation are also more likely to join in if there is a vocal lead. In a parish without such luxuries (and would that be the majority of them?) how best can we keep the music from getting stuck in a rut, but avoid the organist playing an embarrasing solo? The Ash Wednesday liturgy Contrabordun describes would not have worked without a choir to lead and/or sing on their own.

Its happened to me when I've assumed a congregation knows one of the old favourites, only to launch into it from the organ loft and discover from the stony silence that the parish doesn't have this one in their repertoire. Its a very uncomfortable experience and if anyone has found solutions to this it would be good to hear them.

[oopsorganist]

It is such an uncomfortable experience that it is never forgotten and determines what actions you take the next year.........

but I do remember our parish singing Pange Lingua on Holy Thursday and leading it on the organ and it being quite moving, powerful .........we lost the skills to lead it when the choir stormed off a few years back. Also PP wanders around a bit and is unpredictable in his movements and we have no MC. Now, the singers are average (mode) 9 years old. Add to that there may be newcomers at the service but there's two sorts, immigrants who may like Latin better and t'other sort. There may not be, it might just be the music group, three old ladies and a cat. I just can't tell. It's not a service I would have attended before I did the music so I have little experience of it. So I just don't know. I am sure PP said do it in English.

Other than that, I think that if PP is being a Missionary and he is, oh dear, then we should put that first and make the music as inclusive as we can... don't bring Moslems into it....... that has nothing to do with the matter and there are all sorts of reasons there why it then comes down to English as desirable.

Actually I like some Latin stuff, I just can't lead it. (Not bright enough to be in the Lain class you see).

I like the car park idea. Very confusing.

So far it is
Mass of Cille Choirill

We Should Glory in the cross ( PW)
Faith Hope and Love (washing)
Gloria unacc in Latin
Ubi Caritas (Taize)
This is my body during COmmunion
Of the glorious body telling ....... to the side altar .....Therefore we before him bending to the tune Pange Lingua
Silence

[dmu3tem]

We do it in Latin. However, in principle I have no problem with it in English, apart from the fact that the translations I have seen strike me as being unsatisfactory. Does anyone know of some really 'good' (always a subjective judgement) ones that convey something of the artistic poetry or turn of phrase (one imagines)lies in the Latin original?

I note that so far there has been little discussion of the music. We use the 'standard' plainchant. However, given that Tantum Ergo is one of the verses in this hymn, any of the vast corpus of music set to this particular text is likely to work for the whole hymn. I certainly have used the one copied by Wade in the version passed on by Samuel Webbe (known as 'St Thomas') and better known now through its association with the hymn text 'Lord Accept the gifts we offer'. This, by the way, is also a plainchant melody. Its present four part form derives from the fact that plainchant in the late eighteenth century was often sung in this metrical way.

Thomas (Muir)

[asb]

It is clear that we are not observing these requirements in the worldwide church. In practice we have moved to a vernacular rite and this is unlikely to change with the lack of Latin education in schools &/or parishes.

I agree that all 3 of these are statements are correct. But, while this may the reason for not using Latin, is it a valid excuse? Is it not up to us to make it happen? The Muslims and the Jews have a remarkable record of inculcating into their young people knowledge of languages far more remote from English than is (church) Latin.

Did you know the entire Liber Usualis is available as a free pdf from here? I was lucky enough to sing a plainsong Latin mass setting on Ash Wednesday (Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus from Mass 8, the Emendemus at the Imposition and the Qui Meditabitur at Communion). The results, (while far from perfect - 3 of the 5 singers had never seen square notes before) and response from clergy and congregation was sufficiently encouraging for a repeat next year, at which we may be more ambitious, adding the Introit and/or Gradual. The rest of the service was in English: the consensus afterwards was that the music had created a powerful, simple, solemn and prayerful atmosphere, and there was no kneejerking off about 'performance' or 'macaronic' liturgy.


The catch for me was that all this took place in an Anglican church. Now I kind of accept that if I want to sing Noble in B Minor, I have to join an Anglican choir. But you don't have to be a certain Telegraph columnist to find it a bit ironic that these days that's also the only way I can get to sing a Plainsong Proper.

A Kyrie on Ash Wednesday.?

[contrabordun]

A Kyrie on Ash Wednesday.?

C of E...but at least, being Lent, we were spared the postcommunion recital of the Gloria

[organist]

Bp Hollis told a great story at Summer School in 2005, a young girl wanted to join an enclosed community of nuns and after interviewing her, the superior said that before coming to a decision she had to consult the sisters in order that they could discuss how the community needed to change to accomodate a new member.

Ha! ha! I'd forgotten that story - what a great person the Bishop is!