Evening of Feb 2: Presentation or Sunday?

[John Ainslie]

Here's a little rubrical conundrum. The feast of the Presentation is a feast of Our Lord - so says the Calendarium. If it had been one day later, it would have superseded the Sunday Mass and all the weekend Masses would have been in celebration of the feast.

This year the feast of the Presentation is on Saturday. On that Saturday evening, which is the correct Mass to celebrate, that of the current feast-day or the Mass of the Sunday? And, for those to whom it matters, which is the right Vespers to say (or, dare I suggest it, sing) on Saturday evening?

The Westminster Ordo, now part of its Year Book, is quite unhelpful, as are all the other diocesan calendars I can find on the Internet. So I consulted Paul Moynihan, expert in these things and former SSG secretary. He consulted the Vatican's own Ordo and has pronounced: ‘Vespers of the Presentation, Evening Mass of the Sunday’.

So now you know. Thank you, Paul.

[fisherpeter]

Refer to Liturgy Office website http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/liturgy/C ... o/GNLY.pdf
GENERAL NORMS FOR THE LITURGICAL YEAR AND THE CALENDAR motu propriom Paul VI

extracts of precedence and the relevant paragraph §61 in this instance… Feast of Presentation of the Lord

1. Easter triduum of the Lordʼs passion and resurrection.
2. Christmas, the Epiphany of the Lord, the Ascension of the Lord, and Pente
cost.
Sundays of the seasons of Advent, Lent, and Easter.
Ash Wednesday.
Weekdays of Holy Week from Monday to Thursday inclusive.
Days within the octave of Easter.
3. Solemnities of the Lord, the Blessed Vir gin Mary, and saints listed in the Gen er al
Calendar.
Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed (All Souls).
4. Proper solemnities, namely:
1. Solemnity of the principal patron of the place, that is, the city or state.
2. Solemnity of the dedication of a particular church and the an ni ver sa ry.
3. Solemnity of the title of a particular church.
4. Solemnity of the title, or of the founder, or of the principal patron of a
religious order or congregation.
II
5. Feasts of the Lord listed in the General Calendar.
6. Sundays of the season of Christmas and Sundays in Ordinary Time.

61 If the same day were to call for celebration of Evening Prayer of that dayʼs
offi ce and Evening Prayer I of the following day, Evening Prayer of the day with
the higher rank in the Table of Liturgical Days takes precedence; in cases of equal
rank, Evening Prayer of the actual day takes precedence.

[organist]

Westminster cathedral celebrated second vespers of Candlemas and then First Mass of the Sunday!

[edbowie]

And I think that the Cathedral got it right ! Interesting divergence between RC and Anglican liturgies here. It seems to be soleminity in the Anglican church and white frontals/vestments continue from Dec 25 to Feb 2.

[docmattc]

Christmastide continued until 2nd Jan in the Catholic church too until John XXIII's reforms moved it to the Baptism.

Has that not happened we would have been straight out of Christmas and directly into Lent this year!

[docmattc]

I claim the 6000th post!

[Peter]

Christmastide continued until 2nd Jan in the Catholic church too until John XXIII's reforms moved it to the Baptism.

Has that not happened we would have been straight out of Christmas and directly into Lent this year!

Did you mean 2nd Feb? If so, that would have produced a really bizarre situation this year. Before John XXIII's reforms, Lent was preceded by three "purple" Sundays, Septuagesima, Sexagesima and Quinquagesima. Had that arrangement still applied this year, Septuagesima would have fallen on 20th January: one week after the feast of the Holy Family (as the First Sunday after Epiphany was known in those days) and with no "green" Sundays in between. Thus the feast of the Purification (or Presentation these days) on 2nd February would have fallen well within "purple" time though not quite in Lent itself.

These days the First Sunday after Epiphany, or First Ordinary Sunday, is the feast of the Baptism of the Lord, which in the Tridentine calendar used to be 13th January; however, this year 13th January was a Sunday and so the Baptism would have been superseded by the feast of the Holy Family.

While we're on the subject of conundrums (or should that be "conundra"?) ...

I claim the 6000th post!

According to the total at the bottom of the screen, yes. However, adding up the posts listed under each category I get 5339 + 437 + 86 + 11 + 13 + 54 = 5940. Where are the missing 60 posts?

[musicus]

While we're on the subject of conundrums (or should that be "conundra"?) ...

I claim the 6000th post!

According to the total at the bottom of the screen, yes. However, adding up the posts listed under each category I get 5339 + 437 + 86 + 11 + 13 + 54 = 5940. Where are the missing 60 posts?

It's a mystery, to be sure. But we go by the total at the bottom of the screen here, so, well done doc.

[admin]

They're not missing, merely not visible to everyone. For example, there are three private areas for various working parties, such as the Summer School organisers, where they can discuss and record things that aren't for general consumption (such as what pittance people actually get paid for giving their time for the week to teach those of us who are paying pundits!)

Now, if I were to archive the oldest of these, then we'd be below 6000 posts again and you could all play "let's post the 6000 post". And then I could archive the next oldest… We certainly know how to have fun on this forum, don't we?!

[Claire B]

The local anglican rector is proud to state that the crib in his home is not put away until Candlemas. So he has moved straight from Christmas to Lent.

Last night at Ash Weds mass, the PP told us Lent had not started on 6 Feb since 1865 and wouldn't again until 21-something or other.

Must be something to do with global warming.

[edbowie]

Lent next occurs as early as Feb 6 in 2160.

It seems a muddle to have cribs still in place until Feb 2. Especially after events that ocurred in the time of Christ's adult life such as his Baptism and his first miracle at Cana have been celebrated in the liturgy. Maybe there is much to be said for bringing the Christmas season to a close on the Feast of the Epiphany-Jan 6.

[docmattc]

It seems a muddle to have cribs still in place until Feb 2. Especially after events that ocurred in the time of Christ's adult life such as his Baptism and his first miracle at Cana have been celebrated in the liturgy. Maybe there is much to be said for bringing the Christmas season to a close on the Feast of the Epiphany-Jan 6.

For a history of how this chronology of feasts came about see here.

I think how we have it with Christmastide ending on the feast of the baptism is about right. We should make more of Christmastide that the secular world does. But having said that, I wonder how many of the congregation noticed that it was still Christmastide on the feast of the baptism. All our decorations, including the crib were taken down immediatly after Epiphany and the Advent wreath, with white Christmas candle had gone by Holy Family. Anyone know what correct the advent wreath protocol is? It seems to me that if there is to be a white central christmas candle, it should burn for the season, not just Christmas day.