What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Well it does to the people who post here... dispassionate and reasoned debate, with a good deal of humour thrown in for good measure.

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asb
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by asb »

Crumhorn wrote:I sympathise with your embarrassment, asb, but that's not a good enough reason to leave either the forum or a place where you're doing your honest best.


As my previous Anglican PP said to me, somewhat platitudinously(?), when I told him I had really done my best and it had gone wrong: "then your best obviously isn't good enough" followed by "you should anticipate EVERY eventuality and be prepared for it".

I suppose also that in a parish situation I am being unreasonable to expect similar achievements, but having for many years been in the happy position of having been able to attend cathedral choral evensong on a regular basis, I have NEVER witnessed any sort of foul up ANYWHERE. I can look up to and admire the directors of music.

I am only to be despised or, at best, pitied.
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Tsume Tsuyu
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by Tsume Tsuyu »

I do feel sad, asb, that certain people have made you think that only perfection will do. God knows we're not perfect. He forgives our sins, and our shortcomings and inadequacies, and our clumsiness and ineptness. If I looked at things as you do, then I'd do very little in life for my life has been a catalogue of mishaps and mistakes, and sins too. And yet I believe each one has contributed to the person I am now - made up of good bits and not so good bits. I'm a human being, with all the failings and frailties of a human being. I don't always get it right, but I do try, and I believe that God loves me just as I am.
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Crumhorn
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by Crumhorn »

It may reassure you to know, asb, that cathedrals can foul up just as badly or even more thoroughly than parish musicians. But that's what we are - and foulups come with the territory, in music as in life.

To echo Tsume, life isn't about being perfect - that's God's territory. It's about having the courage to make mistakes, learn from them, and be a better person as a result. I am a person who's made more than his fair share - in areas involving more collateral damage to other people than church music (dearly and passionately as I love it) - so that's my philosophy for better or worse. It has to be. In any case, 'show me a person who never made a mistake and I'll show you someone who never made anything'.

Come on, asb, don't be tempted either by despair or by pride. You're better than that!
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asb
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by asb »

Crumhorn wrote:It may reassure you to know, asb, that cathedrals can foul up just as badly or even more thoroughly than parish musicians. But that's what we are - and foulups come with the territory, in music as in life.

To echo Tsume, life isn't about being perfect - that's God's territory. It's about having the courage to make mistakes, learn from them, and be a better person as a result. I am a person who's made more than his fair share - in areas involving more collateral damage to other people than church music (dearly and passionately as I love it) - so that's my philosophy for better or worse. It has to be. In any case, 'show me a person who never made a mistake and I'll show you someone who never made anything'.

Come on, asb, don't be tempted either by despair or by pride. You're better than that!


Another point is that I am paid (not a huge amount) but there are people who resent this and wonder exactly why I am paid if things go wrong. I am going to offer to forego my fee for all 3 Masses last weekend. I am also a peripatetic instrumental teacher and there are children i teach in the parish. What does last week say to them about me?
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Crumhorn
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by Crumhorn »

It says you're a human being, not a machine - thank God!

asb, I run a business that depends on both my creativity and the skill of an excellent programmer. We aim to give the very best to our customers - but sometimes, despite our best efforts, something goes wrong. When it does, I have a very simple way of dealing with it.

1 Tell the customer what has happened, and (if known) why
2 If possible, put it right.
3 If it can't be put right, offer some form of compensation which is a little more than the customer might reasonably expect.

And - for the customers I WANT to keep - that's more than enough. I suggest you adopt the same approach - and then move on. Your life is ahead of you. The rearview mirror is only there for a security check!
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by asb »

I have heard that there was quite a full congregation at mass this morning, despite last week's debacle! Proves my point that people don't care about decently presented liturgy!
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by docmattc »

asb wrote:I have heard that there was quite a full congregation at mass this morning, despite last week's debacle! Proves my point that people don't care about decently presented liturgy!


It proves absolutely nothing of the sort. It shows that people are very forgiving of you (whereas you are completely unforgiving of yourself) and that no-one considers a minor mistake by people trying their best to be anything near enough to drive them away from your community and/or the church in general.
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gwyn
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by gwyn »

I have heard that there was quite a full congregation at mass this morning, despite last week's debacle! Proves my point that people don't care about decently presented liturgy!

Proves nothing of the sort. It simply means that the faithful come to meet Christ their Redeemer and Saviour in the holy sacrifice of the Mass and that "Big You" and "Big Me" no matter how much we think our petty inadequacies matter, really don't.

We're forgiven and redeemed. Our own judgement of ourselves does not outweigh the merciful forgiveness of Our Blessed Lord.

I'm guessing that you wern't present at that particular Mass this morning. Don't avoid them asb, in all our frailness we're the body of Christ, the family of God.
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by asb »

Gwyn wrote:
I have heard that there was quite a full congregation at mass this morning, despite last week's debacle! Proves my point that people don't care about decently presented liturgy!

Proves nothing of the sort. It simply means that the faithful come to meet Christ their Redeemer and Saviour in the holy sacrifice of the Mass and that "Big You" and "Big Me" no matter how much we think our petty inadequacies matter, really don't.

We're forgiven and redeemed. Our own judgement of ourselves does not outweigh the merciful forgiveness of Our Blessed Lord.

I'm guessing that you wern't present at that particular Mass this morning. Don't avoid them asb, in all our frailness we're the body of Christ, the family of God.


On the basis of my "suspension" in a previous parish (see somewhere above) I consider last week's debacle to be far more worthy of such a punishment than that was, therefore I feel the best I can do is suspend myself for a while if the PP doesn't!
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by VML »

It takes a lot more courage to go back, carry on and face the music (!) than to stand down and hide away.
The reaction of whoever suspended you says much more about his hang ups than about you.
We're all behind you, with prayers and moral support,
Keep going, God bless,
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gwyn
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by gwyn »

Lord Jesus crucified; we humbly speak to you, in the Presence of Mary our Blessed Mother. We acknowledge that you suffered so much for us and for all, and that we are indebted to you forever. Lord Jesus; we appreciate very much your sufferings for us and for the rest of humanity. We thank you for saving us through your crushing pain, through your many wounds, through your tiredness and agony and through your Precious Blood shed with so much pain and love for us; through your difficulty to breath, through your sweat and tears, through your merciful patience, through every effort that you made and through your total offering for my sins and for the sins of the whole world.

Lord I complain sometimes when I have a little misfortune, a wound or when I am sick or tired, rejected, despised or persecuted. But you were covered through your entire body with painful wounds; you were pierced with pain by the crown of thorns, you were stripped of your flesh by the scourging, you were insulted with terrible blasphemies, you were spat upon, you were humiliated, you were inflicted new wounds upon your wounded shoulder by the crushing weight of the cross, you were inflicted more wounds upon your wounds by the brutal stripping of your garments, you were pierced painfully by the nails on the cross, you were hanged upon the cross to bleed painfully to death, you suffered asphyxiation as you found it very painful to breathe, and yet your physical agony was only part of your suffering compared to your spiritual agony because you are God, and your holy soul was sorrowful unto death as you surrendered your life in exchange for our eternal life.

You saw the ingratitude of men for your great sacrifice, and you suffered for the pride of our sins, for the aggressiveness of those whom you created with so much love, for the hatred of men who always receive all your love if only they come to you. My Lord Jesus crucified, We come humbly before you, everlasting fountain of healing and life, Powerful source of our Resurrection, food for our souls in the Holy Eucharist, eternal refuge of Divine Light, gate to the Majesty and Glory of the Father and our only hope and salvation. Amen.
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by Peter »

VML wrote:The reaction of whoever suspended you says much more about his hang ups than about you.

Agreed: the phrase "attitude problem" springs to mind if you read ...
asb wrote:As my previous Anglican PP said to me, somewhat platitudinously(?), when I told him I had really done my best and it had gone wrong: "then your best obviously isn't good enough" followed by "you should anticipate EVERY eventuality and be prepared for it".

I agree with the "platitudinously" and also find the remarks unfeeling and unrealistic. (Incidentally, another platitude that asb would do well to forget in this context is that "A bad workman blames his tools". Sometimes we're given tools that even the best workman couldn't use with any success!)

asb's self-suspension here on the grounds of the earlier suspension (see end of page 1) ...
asb wrote:On the basis of my "suspension" in a previous parish (see somewhere above) I consider last week's debacle to be far more worthy of such a punishment than that was, therefore I feel the best I can do is suspend myself for a while if the PP doesn't!
... begs the question as to whether the earlier suspension was a fair and reasonable response (IMHO on the evidence presented so far it wasn't).

asb wrote:I suppose also that in a parish situation I am being unreasonable to expect similar achievements, but having for many years been in the happy position of having been able to attend cathedral choral evensong on a regular basis, I have NEVER witnessed any sort of foul up ANYWHERE. I can look up to and admire the directors of music.

Yes, this is being unreasonable because it is not comparing like with like. Anglican cathedrals have choirs, often attached to choir schools, whose members have over the years attained a high degree of musical literacy and expertise. Built into their schedules is a lot of time to put in a lot of practice to put on a good show. In a sense their choral evensong is a "show" in that the congregation come to listen to them rather than take an active part themselves and they would regard it as a major foul-up if one chorister hung onto a note for a gnat's crotchet longer than the rest.

Sunday Mass in an average parish is a very different matter. According to Vatican II the congregation are there to participate "fully, actively and consciously" in a service with the Eucharistic actions at its heart, which means that music is not the most important part but they are nevertheless encouraged to take part in as much of it as possible (even if in practice many may still go more from a sense of duty than a wish to sing and may therefore, as asb suspects, not care abut the finer points of the liturgy). This in turn means that the music will generally be less ambitious and the performance is more likely to be rough at the edges. In such circumstances the music director simply has to work with what is available and would be very lucky indeed to have one or two people with anything like the musical literacy or expertise of a trained chorister. The choir in my church, whose role is to sing the Psalms and Alleluia verses in unison to Gelineau tones, cannot all read music and would never make it to choir of the year. Not all of them are able to come each week and it has proved impossible to arrange regular practices to which they can all come, so we generally run through the Psalm or at least check what they are doing before Mass. It would be unreasonable to expect perfection from them but I am content if their words are clear and the overall sound is prayerful.

What is especially sad in this case is that that asb is taking the honourable line by accepting responsibility having been specifically directed to do so by the cantor who made the mistake in the first place and should therefore be taking much if not all of the blame. This would appear to be a cowardly, and in view of asb's heartfelt response, unfair act on the part of the cantor. By all means, asb, accept the responsibility but do so in a positive way by asking: (a) What went wrong? (b) Why did it go wrong? (c) What can I do to stop the same happening again? On the face of it, it would seem that the answer to (c) is either to remind the cantor every time before Mass starts what part to sing or to hand out music that only has one Sunday's acclamation on it, so there's no risk of confusion.

Foul-ups have been happening as long as we've had the Mass. The night we remember when we celebrate Mass two of the Apostles realised that they had fouled up in a really big way. One of them responded by ending it all; the other wept, was forgiven and welcomed back into the fold and went on to do great things. You seem in danger, asb, of emulating the former as far as your career is concerned. Haven't you wept enough to give the latter option a try instead?
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by nazard »

Where I grew up, when things went wrong, our parish priest always used to say,

"God's only Son Started to teach us the message of eternal life, and within three years we had nailed Him up on a cross. Compared to that all other possible foul ups pale into insignificance."
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by asb »

Peter wrote:
VML wrote: (a) What went wrong? (b) Why did it go wrong? (c) What can I do to stop the same happening again? On the face of it, it would seem that the answer to (c) is either to remind the cantor every time before Mass starts what part to sing or to hand out music that only has one Sunday's acclamation on it, so there's no risk of confusion.


The cantor didn't know why it happened. We have weekly rehearsals, for cantors alone as well as full choir, and every singer has a detailed music list.. He had been having trouble with the syncopation in the verse for The Baptism, but had got it "sussed" and told me had been looking through it and singing it in his mind during the 2nd reading. The correct verse was the 2nd on the page - the 1st being the Epiphany verse which he sang by mistake but cannot explain why. The only way to avoid it would be to photocopy, which for obvious reasons cannot be done. Or, more radically, drop this set of Acclamations and use ones where the verses can be sung to any psalm tone; had we been doing one of those, I could have gone with the flow and the mistake would have been less noticeable in as much as, ok, the wrong verse would have been sung, but we wouldn't have ended up with an "exchange" from the organ loft to the ambo! I would be reluctant to ditch this particular set; because they have proved popular and serviceable. (Can't remember the name of the collection as my copy has lost its cover, but it was published by Mayhew and contains Alleluias for Advent, Christmas, easter and three for Ordinary Time plus a Lenten acclamation.
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Tsume Tsuyu
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Re: What do you do if you, your choir or cantors foul up?

Post by Tsume Tsuyu »

I'm not sure why you're worrying. You can bet your bottom dollar that that particular cantor won't make the same mistake again. Even though he laughed with his fellow choir members I'm sure that, deep down, he was just as mortified as you, possibly more so since he was the one actually stood in front of the congregation. I only hope he's not beating himself up quite as much! I'm sorry, asb, but I'm struggling to see why this is so awful. I make so many mistakes - at work, at Mass, as a parent. I'm not proud of my mistakes, but I try to learn from them.

Anyway, I'm not sure it would be breach of copyright to reproduce one copy, blanking out the verses not being used, and then dispose of it immediately after Mass, would it? After all, you have the book; you would just be using a temporary copy in place of the book. If it would give you peace of mind for the future, this would seem to be a sensible thing to do.
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