Organs and instruments

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musicus
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Organs and instruments

Post by musicus »

In another topic, Andrew wrote:However good it may be to have a music group praying together, what are they (a couple of guitarists, the odd flute, clarinet, whatever, going to do, collaboratively and on the spur of the moment when the tempo of the congregational singing goes awry-faster or slower? An experienced organist, (alone and in their ivory tower) knows what tricks of the trade to bring into play to get things back on course.

Why was the organ originally used in church? It has the power to fill a building with sound, and the sustained tone suitable for accompaniment.

Also, a good organist can think about suitable tempi and start accordingly.
I have heard the following more than once: Priest ends preface...audible stage whisper from music group leader - "ready? 1,2,3.go!" Give me a good organist any day.

Anyone care to comment?

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Re: Organs and instruments

Post by presbyter »

In another topic, Andrew wrote:It has the power to fill a building with sound, and the sustained tone suitable for accompaniment.


Not if the P.P. suddenly sells off the console it doesn't! Oh well - the pipes are decorative I guess :roll:
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Re: Organs and instruments

Post by Andrew »

Not if the P.P. suddenly sells off the console it doesn't! Oh well - the pipes are decorative I guess :roll:


Oi! This is heading back to the original topic that I (backed up by Musicus) got us out of!!!
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Post by Benevenio »

To answer the points Andrew originally raised (elsewhere and here):

Any instrumental group or choir has a director of some form - to give tempo, initial pitch. A few choirs can do this almost undirected; these groups tend to be the elite, and I dare to suggest that this is not where most of our volunteers in church choirs and instrumental groups are. If the leader is the organist, that is fine. If the leader is the choir directore, that's good too. If there is a music group, then it is up to the music group leader to provide the direction. Each of them however must be given suitable training (funded by the parish).

In our parish - the one where the organ console has been sold, by the way (thanks presbyter!) - we do use "a couple of guitarists, the odd flute and clarinet" and still manage effectively lead the music. The tempo doesn't wander; leadership - unobtrusive in the main - is from one person sure, but not neccessarily always the same person - could be from the cantor, from the guitarist, from the priest. Can only a good organist think about suitable tempi and start accordingly? Can only an experienced organist, (alone and in their ivory tower) know the tricks of the trade to bring into play to get things back on course? I cannot accept that: it is obviously complete *beep*, and grossly offensive to the many, many practitioners of other instruments, other music leaders, animateurs, cantors, choir directors...

In order to support the singing effectively, some of the instruments I use are amplified. Let's face it, the guitar was never designed to fill a large church with sound whereas the organ was. So we use that which we have to fulfil the same roles as I outlined elsewhere - lead, support, comfort.

Why was the organ originally used in church? Ans: It's a cuckoo. I think the human voice was the original instrument, and should still be. Melodic instruments have had their ups and downs (no pun intended) over the ages. The organ, a relative latecomer to the liturgical party, has ousted them to all intents and purposes, and been given some kingly status which it really does not deserve. It is only good in as much as it is a servant of the assembly, not its master. It is only good in the hands of a good, liturgically sensitive organist... but then so is any music group only good in the hands of good, experienced, sensitive practitioners, willing to minister and able not to dominate.

If your music group leader can only start in an audible stage whisper, accept that that is where they are today and work with them to move them on tomorrow to somewhere you consider better. I find that conducting the tempo at the start of a piece is effective for my group... I recall there is precedent for that orchestrally! This has the added bonus that the assembly can see the instruments being led and are ready then for some limited arm-waving at them - a minimalist approach to being an animateur (a role I much prefer personally to do with my eyes and facial expression than with my hands alone).

I recognise that my initial suggestion was sly (if you haven't read it, it is somewhere in the middle of this thread), and somewhat axe-grinding, for which I apologise. I find Andrew's response somewhat closed-minded; Perhaps it is as slyly put as my initial post! But I do like Gwyn's: If we had the console, then I would use the organ with the instruments, and indeed I have done so in other parishes.

What I have found is that it takes great care - each instrument needs its own soundspace in which to work. It really doesn't work if all that is happening is a mess somewhere in the middle. Sometimes all that the organ was required to do was to put in a pedal part to support the guitars and underpin everything - no manual at all. When we use the piano with the music group now, I prefer it when the piano doesn't have all the harmony or melody, often asking for the right hand to move up an octave to allow the guitar to operate in that range of notes, or the left hand to miss the root of the chords because the bass guitar is providing that, and paring down written keyboard parts to accomodate other instruments. (The pianist hates it by the way, but at least is willing to have a go, for which I am grateful.) Or when using two guitars, quite often one is on open strings and the other on capo 5 or above. You see, it isn't just the organist who needs to consider tempo, registration and the like. Please do not write off those of us you might think too 'poor' to be organists. Instead, come to the instrumentalist workshop at this year's SSG summer school and find out what the rest of us have to do :wink:
Last edited by Benevenio on Mon May 10, 2004 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by presbyter »

Of course, the Eastern Rite Churches - both Catholic and Orthodox - have never permitted the use of any musical instruments in their worship. The human voice alone is the instrument for prayer. And as for filling a building with sound.... well come to the Ukrainian Catholic or Greek Orthodox ceremonies in this "place of forgers". You will be impressed.
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Post by Andrew »

Sorry if my posting seemed "closed minded" when it was not meant to.

The point again being missed here is that ONE (experienced)person - ok, could be on piano, keyboard, whatever - rather than a GROUP (who in many cases are neither "led", nor experienced) has more chance of controlling things.

I am grateful to all those who provide music for worship, especially in difficult circumstances. What I have difficulty with is those "music groups" who see themselves as being the be-all-and-end-all of parish music. The tone of the last posting seems to denigrate organists in just the same way as I was perceived to be denegrating music groups.

I also have experience of being told on return from holiday that a newcomer to the parish was starting a music group and that they would be playing on the 1st Sunday of every month henceforth, and could I please stay away that week. This experiment was not an unqualified success, but in view of the way it was implemented, despite the theme of the 6th Sunday of Easter, I cannot help but feel slighted myself.
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Organs and instruments

Post by Andrew »

BEFORE ANYONE YELLS, I MEANT 5TH SUNDAY OF EASTER!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Benevenio »

OK!

There are many fine organists - some even consider me a friend!

We agree 8) - No-one, no group, is the be-all-and-end-all; one person does have far more chance of keeping things in line than a nebulus group without leadership... But then again, we read elsewhere in this forum how, when the one person in charge (priest) has the power to dismiss organists/music leaders, or make any other changes, without any real reference to anyone or anything, it can lead to great resentment. Change is a very destructive force if handled badly.

Imposition shows a lack of pastoral care for the existing musicians, even if it might be (longer term) a good thing for the newcomers and for the assembly.

But hey! All this would have been discussed by the parish pastoral council, right? and the liturgy planning group? :?
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organs and instruments

Post by Andrew »

No, it was not discussed at PPC, and the parish does not have a liturgy committee.

That PP has gone - his replacement has his faults too though; another thread in the offing! :roll:
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