I've been asked by the PP to introduce John Bell's "A touching place" into our repertoire. Its been on my radar for a few years but I've been uncomfortable about introducing it because of verse 3.
If there are parents in the congregation who've lost children, or women who have been abused, does this verse suddenly tear them back to those circumstances unexpectedly? If so, is it fair to do that to them?
Is this a consideration or am I being over sensitive?
A touching place
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oopsorganist
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WOW your priest knows his radical hymns!
Maybe people don't register the words truly, unless it meets them in a need, in which case it may heal as will as disturb. There is one of Iona's I have on a CD about loss of a baby which has me in floods of tears and I have not lost a baby.......
As if you were not there is another very powerful and disruptive song. Enemy of Apathy, yes, I like. But maybe I am not representative. Inspired by Love and Anger...... good one too. Lord You have come to the water/lakeside was what finally finished off our ex choir .....
You could miss out verse three.... just do two, it is there in verse three for any one it may disturb to read quietly. Many people well up at anything in church if they are struggling and most of us are because that is the human condition.
And most people will say that if they lose a baby one of the hardest things is that other people cannot deal with it and will never mention it, cross over the road rather than have to give condolences etc.
Oh, I just re read it, it's all confronting isn't it? Just about everybody there.
I'll come and help sing it.
Can we swop parishes please?
Maybe people don't register the words truly, unless it meets them in a need, in which case it may heal as will as disturb. There is one of Iona's I have on a CD about loss of a baby which has me in floods of tears and I have not lost a baby.......
As if you were not there is another very powerful and disruptive song. Enemy of Apathy, yes, I like. But maybe I am not representative. Inspired by Love and Anger...... good one too. Lord You have come to the water/lakeside was what finally finished off our ex choir .....
You could miss out verse three.... just do two, it is there in verse three for any one it may disturb to read quietly. Many people well up at anything in church if they are struggling and most of us are because that is the human condition.
And most people will say that if they lose a baby one of the hardest things is that other people cannot deal with it and will never mention it, cross over the road rather than have to give condolences etc.
Oh, I just re read it, it's all confronting isn't it? Just about everybody there.
I'll come and help sing it.
Can we swop parishes please?
uh oh!
We sang it this morning and have sung it many times in the past.
Verse two sets up the following verses "feel for the people we most avoid". The other verses go on to name some of the marginalised groups in our society.
If you have any couples in your church who have lost a child, perhaps you could talk to them first. They might be amazed that someone is willing to discuss things with them. They are usually ones to avoid as they make people feel uncomfortable.
Not an easy one to sing - but is that a good reason not to?
Verse two sets up the following verses "feel for the people we most avoid". The other verses go on to name some of the marginalised groups in our society.
If you have any couples in your church who have lost a child, perhaps you could talk to them first. They might be amazed that someone is willing to discuss things with them. They are usually ones to avoid as they make people feel uncomfortable.
Not an easy one to sing - but is that a good reason not to?
This is a very special song, and one that I have used sparingly. More than once, people have come to me after Mass and shared how profoundly this song has spoken to them and to their situation. Other folks have taken the weekly service sheet home to reflect at leisure on the words. Sometimes when choosing music, we 'get it right' rather more than we know. Hopefully, the Holy Spirit plays a part in all this.
There are a handful of 'difficult' texts like this, but I have never had anyone complain about being challenged by a text - though someone did complain about a melody once!
There are a handful of 'difficult' texts like this, but I have never had anyone complain about being challenged by a text - though someone did complain about a melody once!
musicus - moderator, Liturgy Matters
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Touching place
I agree this is a special song but I think the church ought to sing and pray about these things so i used to get my children's choir to lead it. One member of the congregation really loved "We cannot measure how you heal" and as one got few reactions from the people of God hers was to be treasured!
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lesley wright
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A Touching Place
We use it (sparingly) in our parish - and it always moves someone. In fact just this week we included it in a liturgy commissioning the Diocesan Youth Team for a mission in some of our high schools. But these are indeed words which give people problems; the first time I came across it, at a Summer School in New Hall a good few years ago, one of my fellow singers was moved to tears by the fact that it ignored her problem - we are invited to feel for the baby for whom there's no breast, but she was a breast for whom there was no baby in that she and her husband could not have children.
I wonder about this sort of material altogether. Should a line be drawn between public Sunday liturgy and the particular emotional needs of this or that person? I think it is interesting that material from a decidedly non-Catholic standpoint is causing questions as to its use at mass, which is a very particular form of worship. (I get quite cranky about stuff that is about "me" rather than "us" at mass - does not belong at all, ever, under any circumstances. No, not even Soul of my Saviour. Keep all the "me and Jesus stuff for private devotions, thank you.)
Something feels just wrong about that material that I can't quite put my finger on. Perhaps it is that some things belong more at a Healing Mass/Service. Something to do with worshipping as one body and so losing oneself rather than concentrating on oneself. Something to do with deliberately scratching at peoples' pain to get a "spiritual" response. (Nasty one that - too close to manipulation.)
Sorry this is even more random than my usual contributions.
Alan
Something feels just wrong about that material that I can't quite put my finger on. Perhaps it is that some things belong more at a Healing Mass/Service. Something to do with worshipping as one body and so losing oneself rather than concentrating on oneself. Something to do with deliberately scratching at peoples' pain to get a "spiritual" response. (Nasty one that - too close to manipulation.)
Sorry this is even more random than my usual contributions.
Alan
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Anne
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Marian hymns at Mass? I am sure there are different opinions about this one.
In planning a Confirmation Mass last year there was a suggestion from one of the music group to have 'As I kneel before you' during Communion!!! When I asked why she was suggesting this hymn, she said that it was sung at her Confirmation a few years ago and it made a deep impression on her and made her mum cry!! She couldn't remember anything else about her Confirmation except singing 'As I kneel before you' and her mum in tears.
Emotions and nostalgia surrounding hymns sung in our formative years go very deep. How do we respectfully move people away from the thinking that the choice of music in their earlier years was all great, to thinking that we now have a better understanding of liturgy and that what was thought to be OK then is not necessarily appropriate to day?
In planning a Confirmation Mass last year there was a suggestion from one of the music group to have 'As I kneel before you' during Communion!!! When I asked why she was suggesting this hymn, she said that it was sung at her Confirmation a few years ago and it made a deep impression on her and made her mum cry!! She couldn't remember anything else about her Confirmation except singing 'As I kneel before you' and her mum in tears.
Emotions and nostalgia surrounding hymns sung in our formative years go very deep. How do we respectfully move people away from the thinking that the choice of music in their earlier years was all great, to thinking that we now have a better understanding of liturgy and that what was thought to be OK then is not necessarily appropriate to day?
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docmattc
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Can I gently remind posters that this thread has nothing to do with Marian hymns.
Nor is the me/we debate relevant as the particular piece we're discussing is exclusively 'we'. I didn't even say that I intended using it at Mass.
The delicacy of this hymn is that, in contrast to many 'social justice' hymns, some of the marginalised groups that are mentioned may actually be in our midst. I don't think its intention is to 'scratch at peoples' pain to get a spiritual response', but the possibility of this "side effect" is why I have reservations.
It is a very good piece for reminding us that social justice doesn't begin and end with putting a quid in the CAFOD collection.
Welcome to the forum by the way Lesley
Nor is the me/we debate relevant as the particular piece we're discussing is exclusively 'we'. I didn't even say that I intended using it at Mass.
The delicacy of this hymn is that, in contrast to many 'social justice' hymns, some of the marginalised groups that are mentioned may actually be in our midst. I don't think its intention is to 'scratch at peoples' pain to get a spiritual response', but the possibility of this "side effect" is why I have reservations.
It is a very good piece for reminding us that social justice doesn't begin and end with putting a quid in the CAFOD collection.
Welcome to the forum by the way Lesley
Doc has beaten me to it on at least two counts: 
so I will happily just echo his remarks. If people want to pursue the first point, here is a thread which might repay their perusal.
[Edited by Musicus to reference a more recent and more useful thread]
docmattc wrote:Can I gently remind posters that this thread has nothing to do with Marian hymns...
...Welcome to the forum by the way Lesley
so I will happily just echo his remarks. If people want to pursue the first point, here is a thread which might repay their perusal.
[Edited by Musicus to reference a more recent and more useful thread]
Last edited by musicus on Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
musicus - moderator, Liturgy Matters
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It is a non Catholic composer but is it a non Catholic standpoint? What is that anyway. Plenty of older hymns are non Catholic composed and people often really like them, Catholic standpoint or no.
Should a public Sunday Mass be the point of touching this or that person's emotional needs? Only spiritual needs met here? Leave your feelings in the porch sort of thing? "We are there to help each other, walk the walk (smiles) and bear the load". Is that a spiritual load then or a physical one.......or a moral one, having trouble deciding on the right course of action? If the Mass is only a public act of worship and no more........
Many modernish hymns have the same if not as raw impact, something about singing in modern language......... whereas, Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty, early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee... has no emotional impact whatsoever and can be sung ( or not sung in our Parish) with no thought whatsoever too. A matter of routine. Or liturgy. Or it can become mumbo jumbo.
I would think small brain that I am that if it has no emotional impact it ain't doing its job. We are just saying the words. And we can go on doing it and teaching it to the few young people still around, this disassociation until whenever.
And is it possible to be repentant etc without it being emotional?
It's a very British church this one isn't it?
Sos Alan I bet you didn't mean to get me going.
Should a public Sunday Mass be the point of touching this or that person's emotional needs? Only spiritual needs met here? Leave your feelings in the porch sort of thing? "We are there to help each other, walk the walk (smiles) and bear the load". Is that a spiritual load then or a physical one.......or a moral one, having trouble deciding on the right course of action? If the Mass is only a public act of worship and no more........
Many modernish hymns have the same if not as raw impact, something about singing in modern language......... whereas, Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty, early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee... has no emotional impact whatsoever and can be sung ( or not sung in our Parish) with no thought whatsoever too. A matter of routine. Or liturgy. Or it can become mumbo jumbo.
I would think small brain that I am that if it has no emotional impact it ain't doing its job. We are just saying the words. And we can go on doing it and teaching it to the few young people still around, this disassociation until whenever.
And is it possible to be repentant etc without it being emotional?
It's a very British church this one isn't it?
Sos Alan I bet you didn't mean to get me going.
uh oh!
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SMoore
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As a mother who has lost a child I would like to look at the words of this song, but alas I can not find them.
Personally, I find the avoidance of anything to do with mentioning the loss of children to be an unpredictable item at best. There are some times that I'm OK with talking about it and others that such things just rip me to emotional shreds, the difference between the two can be as little as a second with no reason. That said I would rather hear someone else notice that people avoid discussing it more than I do.
I have found that the quickest way to stop people from prying in to my life is to start by saying "I'm a mother of 3, me eldest son is almost 4 my daughter is 13 months, and their eldest brother may he rest in peace was 4 months when we lost him 7 years ago."
That said, depending on how the wording is done I would probably use the hymn realizing it could be problematic for a few.
Sarah
Personally, I find the avoidance of anything to do with mentioning the loss of children to be an unpredictable item at best. There are some times that I'm OK with talking about it and others that such things just rip me to emotional shreds, the difference between the two can be as little as a second with no reason. That said I would rather hear someone else notice that people avoid discussing it more than I do.
I have found that the quickest way to stop people from prying in to my life is to start by saying "I'm a mother of 3, me eldest son is almost 4 my daughter is 13 months, and their eldest brother may he rest in peace was 4 months when we lost him 7 years ago."
That said, depending on how the wording is done I would probably use the hymn realizing it could be problematic for a few.
Sarah