Good Friday

[docmattc]

Dear me.

I am very confused.

Could we get a bit of guidance on this please? I am now sure whatever we are singing is wrong. Probably only two hymns because I have not got a clear idea about what to do. And I need to start now if I am going to sort it out.

Fear not oops. In amongst all this academic discussion (too academic for me and I are one!) is the following:

Music during the veneration can be, the options given in the Missal (they're even in my Sunday missal that I was given for my first communion) or "other suitable hymns". What we consider 'suitable' is a big question, there will no doubt be suggestions in the Liturgy Planner nearer the time. Over the years I've used:
Dan Schutte "Behold the Wood"
Palestrina "Adoramus te"
Berthier "All you who pass this way"
Berthier "Jesus remember me"
"There is a green hill" (it was a request from one of those old ladies who's feelings we have to respect!)
"Were you there when they crucified my Lord (I was young- The memory of it makes me tremble, tremble, tremble!)
"O come and mourn"
"O sacred head"

and probably more that don't spring readily to mind. I don't present any of these as paradigms, simply my experience.

Presbyter's link indicates that in a newer version of the missal than I have, Stabat Mater is also an option. congregations probably know this best as 'At the cross her station keeping"

What is venerated is normally a cross with a figure on it, but there seem to be regional variations.

[oopsorganist]

Ok thanks

I have been resolutely keeping things simple for a while. If I remember rightly we did a certain amount of silence and probably sang "The old rugged cross" and "Where you there" but I the latter got little response. I fear that O Sacred Head and so on would be difficult to get going again......O come and mourn with me awhile might get going. What happened to "Man of Sorrows"? Oo, I used to like "Was ever man look well and see" when I was little, that's a really miserable hymn. Or is it Was't ever man look well and see, now I am confused again. False memory syndrome or old age, one or the other.

Some people want to sing "Will you not watch one hour with me" but it is difficult to know where to put this in the Triduum.

[gwyn]

"Ours were the sufferings He bore" (Francesca Leftly) is effective and seems appropriate.

[oopsorganist]

oh yes that is nice. But little point getting going with something that they will not be able to join in with.

[oopsorganist]

On Holy Thursday, we would be singing Of the Glorious Body Telling, if not Pange Lingua etc although it turns out that we have lost the ability to sing this in Latin two years since. With indecision about how many verses, when to start verses five and six (when Father has finished processing around). And then he continues with the remainder of it (Tantum Ergo) inspite of asking for a little gap, before I have begun it on the organ. Which is a pity because it really does something for me this moment of old music when the people used to sing it well. But only when it was in Latin. I would not dare replace it with anything else and there is no good reason to sing "Would you not watch an hour with me" if it supposed to be silence.

[presbyter]

The documented practice of the presbyteral churches of Rome (7th century) speaks of a veneration of "the cross". Yet none of the authors I have skimmed through address the question of the possibility of "the cross" being a crucifix. Do they presume that it is or is it more likely to be a plain cross of wood? Personally, I am inclined towards the latter.

Or could it have been a splinter from the relic in Santa Croce, housed, perhaps, in a cruciform reliquary? Possible I suppose.

[presbyter]

1) Don't you think the first consideration of what to sing should be the texts of the liturgy itself?

2) If you have to substitute other hymns for the set texts, don't you think they should be in harmony with the SCDWDS instruction ?

3) The use of the Stabat Mater (or similar song) is subject to stringent conditions. Read them.

Go read those hymn texts you've posted and see if the harmony is there.

[quaeritor]

1) Don't you think the first consideration of what to sing should be the texts of the liturgy itself?

2) If you have to substitute other hymns for the set texts, . . .

Aaaaaaaah! (That's definitely "Aaaaaaah!", not "Aaaaaargh!")

Shouldn't that always be the first objective? - "The text, the whole text, and nothing but the text" is my mantra. Singing something else is just a confession of defeat. Surely the important word in Presbyter's point 2) is "have" - not just "If you'd prefer to . . "

[Reginald]

Doubly agree with Presbyter. And more controversially shouldn't we always be giving some consideration to singing the text in the Graduale, even if it's not in Latin and plainchant, rather than picking our favourite 'gathering'/offertory/communion hymns. That's the logic behind us singing a hymn based on the text of the Beatitudes as our Communion hymn for All Saints (and yes it has a refrain that can be sung by the kids as they process).

Before we embark on a discussion of the antiphons and psalms being on a one year cycle and not a three year cycle that follows the lectionary, there's a kind of freedom in not doing your favourite hymn - and sometimes you find something you never would have considered.

BXVI often talks of us being 'servants of the liturgy' rather than masters of it.

[contrabordun]

Francesca Leftly

Now that's just going to confirm the Telegraph's worst fears about this board.

[gwyn]

Contrabordun wrote:

Now that's just going to confirm the Telegraph's worst fears about this board.

Oops! I dropped my guard there for a second or two.

[musicus]

Ours were the sufferings he bore is indeed a fine piece – words and music. It is by Francesca Leftley and can be found in Celebration for Everyone, at number 590.

[gwyn]

Ours were the sufferings he bore is indeed a fine piece

Abso. A refrain straight from scripture with room for simple 4-part harmony and optional (but delightful) oboe/Bb Clarinet parts. And yet it works beautifully in a simple melodic form too.

I commend it to the house.

b.t.w. I'm sure I first came across this on a SSG audio CD.

[VML]

Re-opening this discussion, is there any place left for Stabat Mater, Latin or English?
I thought of using it on Good Friday, but something is not quite right. Yes, we shold have the Reproaches sung, but with choir practices averaging 2.5 people, not possible. The Damian Lundy 'O, my people'? Maybe.

What about 'We hold the death of the Lord' by Davis Haas? It seems to me to be more Eucharist based, with the later verse words, but what do others do? Our newest member says he's used it for Good Friday for years.

[Southern Comfort]

The new Missal specifically permits the use of the Stabat Mater on Good Friday. Whether this is a good idea is, of course, a rather different matter. Think: confusion of liturgy with devotion.... And I seem to remember mentioning on this thread of another that the Good Friday liturgy is not a Requiem Mass for Jesus. It's a celebration of Passion, yes, but moving onwards towards Jesus's Triumph over Death and Resurrection.

The problem with Damian Lundy's setting is that, even in Chris Walker's version, there are numerous false word accents. It's easy to do something about those, but most people don't seem to bother.

For my money, Peter Jones's setting is the one to go for in OCP's Easter Mysteries. If you don't like that one, OCP also has a Taizé-style setting by Paul Inwood. I think they are both called "O my people".