Good Friday

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mcb
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Post by mcb »

presbyter wrote:Hang on a mo...... Forget the present ICEL and read the Missal.

Crucem tuam adoramus, Domine,
et sanctam resurrectionem tuam laudamus et glorificamus:
ecce enim propter lignum
venit gaudium in universo mundo....

Yes, but the glosses here all say that veneration of the cross is adoration of Christ. It's implicit in the Latin text too - 'crucem' is juxtaposed with 'resurrectionem', so perhaps the word may be taken to mean our Lord's action on the cross rather than the object itself.
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presbyter
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Post by presbyter »

alan29 wrote:........over and above having a lack of knowledge of the Church history and tradition. Combining these two factors, when the word "cross" is used in Latin, they assume it means "cross." Those who can read Latin and know Church history and tradition, they know that the usage of the word "cross" literally means "crucifix" unless specified otherwise.


So how far back are we going in our pursuit of history and tradition? The early basilicas / churches did not have a cross / crucifix. The presidential chair was placed in the apse beneath this:
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Post by presbyter »

the file has not attached - sorry - hang on
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Post by presbyter »

mcb wrote:Yes, but the glosses here all say that veneration of the cross is adoration of Christ.


Sure it is.

If I may use an analogy - off the top of my head again (but with no desire to place this object upon it) - one might pay reverence and give honour to Saint Edward's Crown (keep calm Guardian readers) but the honour is really being given not to the object but to the person who wears it.
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Post by presbyter »

Here's the file
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Post by presbyter »

Here's Egereia

Complete text with notes here.


(c) Veneration of the Cross.

Then a chair is placed for the bishop in Golgotha behind the Cross, which is now standing; the bishop duly takes his seat in the chair, and a table covered with a linen cloth is placed before him; the deacons stand round the table, and a silver-gilt casket is brought in which is the holy wood of the Cross. The casket is opened and (the wood) is taken out, and both the wood of the Cross and the title are placed upon the table. Now, when it has been put upon the table, the bishop, as he sits, holds the extremities of the sacred wood firmly in his hands, while the deacons who stand around guard it. It is guarded thus because the custom is that the people, both faithful and catechumens, come one by one and, bowing down at the table, kiss the sacred wood and pass through. And because, I know not when, some one is said to have bitten off and stolen a portion of the sacred wood, it is thus guarded by the deacons who stand around, lest any one approaching should venture to do so again. And as all the people pass by one by one, all bowing themselves, they touch the Cross and the title, first with their foreheads and then with their eyes; then they kiss the Cross and pass through, but none lays his hand upon it to touch it. When they have kissed the Cross and have passed through, a deacon stands holding the ring of Solomon and the horn from which the kings were anointed; they kiss the horn also and gaze at the ring . . . all the people are passing through up to the sixth hour, entering by one door and going out by another; for this is done in the same place where, on the preceding day, that is, on the fifth weekday, the oblation was offered.

(d) Station before the Cross. The Three Hours. And when the sixth hour has come, they go before the Cross, whether it be in rain or in heat, the place being open to the air, as it were, a court of great size and of some beauty between the Cross and the Anastasis; here all the people assemble in such great numbers that there is no thoroughfare. The chair is placed for the bishop before the Cross, and from the sixth to the ninth hour nothing else is done, but the reading of lessons, which are read thus: first from the psalms wherever the Passion is spoken of, then from the Apostle, either from the epistles of the Apostles or from their Acts, wherever they have spoken of the Lord's Passion; then the passages from the Gospels, where He suffered, are read. Then the readings from the prophets where they foretold that the Lord should suffer, then from the Gospels where He mentions His Passion. Thus from the sixth to the ninth hours the lessons are so read and the hymns said, that it may be shown to all the people that whatsoever the prophets foretold of the Lord's Passion is proved from the Gospels and from the writings of the Apostles to have been fulfilled. And so through all those three hours the people are taught that nothing was done which had not been foretold, and that nothing was foretold which was not wholly fulfilled. Prayers
also suitable to the day are interspersed throughout. The emotion shown and the mourning by all the people at every lesson and prayer is wonderful; for there is none, either great or small, who, on that day during those three hours, does not lament more than can be conceived, that the Lord had suffered those things for us.

Afterwards, at the beginning of the ninth hour, there is read that passage from the Gospel according to John where He gave up the ghost. This read, prayer and the dismissal follow.

(e) Evening Offices. And when the dismissal before the Cross has been made, all things are done in the greater church, at the martyrium, which are customary during this week from the ninth hour --when the assembly takes place in the martyrium--until late. And after the dismissal at the martyrium, they go to the Anastasis, where, when they arrive, the passage from the Gospel is read where Joseph begged the Body of the Lord from Pilate and laid it in a new sepulchre. And this reading ended, a prayer is said, the catechumens are blessed, and the dismissal is made.
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Post by presbyter »

alan29 wrote:Those who can read Latin and know Church history and tradition.....


All right, so whoever is trying to answer the question is talking about Good Friday but I still want to make the point that the fourth century Church did not express the faith primarily through images of Christ crucified. Even in places of burial, it is the risen Christ who is depicted.
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Post by presbyter »

Still in my armchair and not descending stairs to find printed references....

this might be of interest:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04533a.htm
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Post by docmattc »

I only suggested up a bit of (poorly rhyming) music! :shock:
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Post by presbyter »

alan29 wrote: the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) does at times stipulate that the cross used at Holy Mass must have the figure of Christ.


Which, on Good Friday - is probably covered in a purple cloth and cannot be seen.
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Re: Cross vs Crucifix

Post by presbyter »

contrabordun wrote:Just out of interest, what are the chances that any of them are anything of the sort?


Ours has a letter of authenticity (in Latin) signed by a curial official and a red seal attached. Will that do? :?:
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presbyter
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Post by presbyter »

mcb wrote:
docmattc wrote:we venerate the cross, we can only worship God.

Yes, that sounds right to me, now you say it. The Latin is venite adoremus, and adoring is reserved for God alone too.


from the online Catholic Encyclopedia:

A non-Catholic may say that this is all very dramatic and interesting, but allege a grave deordination in the act of adoration of the Cross on bended knees. Is not adoration due to God alone? The answer may be found in our smallest catechism. The act in question is not intended as an expression of absolute supreme worship (latreia) which, of course, is due to God alone. The essential note of the ceremony is reverence (proskynesis) which has a relative character, and which may be best explained in the words of the Pseudo-Alcuin: "Prosternimur corpore ante crucem, mente ante Dominium. Veneramur crucem, per quam redempti sumus, et illum deprecamur, qui redemit" (While we bend down in body before the cross we bend down in spirit before God. While we reverence the cross as the instrument of our redemption, we pray to Him who redeemed us)
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Post by presbyter »

Was this thread about music during the veneration of the Cross?

Has anyone noticed the new rubric?

Iuxta locorum condiciones aut populi traditiones et pro opportunitate pastorali, cantari potest Stabat Mater, secundum Graduale Romanum, vel alius cantus aptus in memoriam compassionis beatae Mariae Virginis.

Note the conditions of use.
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Post by presbyter »

A translation and a list of other adjustments to the rubrics in Pope John Paul II's third edition of the Missal (2002) will be found here:

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/goodfriday.shtml
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Post by alan29 »

I seem to have set presbyter off on one. I was trying to see whether crux means cross or crucifix as there seems to be a difference of tradition among us about which is used on Good Friday. I thought perhaps the confusion was linguistically based.
If I am alarmed and dismayed at turning the clock back to Trent, I can't tell you how bad references to the Sarum Use are to my well being.
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